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Overall Discussion - Epic Four

mihau Wrote:I am pretty sure that if there were a toolbox/handbook for designing the AI many Players would go for it.

You might think, but everything short of a compiler that is needed to rewrite the Civ4 AI is already freely available. If one truly has the will and ability to redesign the AI, there's nothing standing in the way.

We're talking about a huge chunk of work, though. Tinkering with a couple of processes is not going to result in a major performance upgrade. Most of the people capable of doing this will be spending their energies doing something else, while most of those who have the free time and would be willing to sink this many of their hours in to a hobby project will lack the ability. It would only take one person, but don't be surprised if nothing significant happens.


- Sirian
Fortune favors the bold.
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Sirian Wrote:You might think, but everything short of a compiler that is needed to rewrite the Civ4 AI is already freely available.

I don't know if I understood correctly, my english is not perfect:
AI scripts are available, engine for them is known, but if I would like to implement changes and play (for example change some tresholds, or AI attitue) I need to have a compiler, right?

Sirian Wrote:We're talking about a huge chunk of work, though. Tinkering with a couple of processes is not going to result in a major performance upgrade.

This is perfectly understandable. AI has to do EVERYTHING: decide where to settle, what to produce, what tiles to work and how, choose which techs R vital/trival - and these are only economical issues, add diplomacy, add military ...
Every issue is connected and infuence each other. twirl

PLUS: it is easier to say than actually implement. Many people have wrong view on the programming process rolleye .
for example
U can't say: "now decide where to settle". For the AI each tile needs to be priced (evaluated). When picking a spot AI has to look at (evaluate) groups of 21 tiles, but a simple sum is not best answer. Tiles need to be categorised (food/production/happy) because a very good spot, but productive only is not the best spot, taking the lesser one with food+production capability is a better choice. How to implement such algorythm? How to deal with 50/50 (equal) cases? How to prevent from looping?

I must say I am impressed with CivIV AI, really!
What U say about AIs not going for other then Space victory is true, other victory types happen to AIs by a coincedence wink . I take the AIs in the game as obstciles, not opponents.
I would gladly welcome Issy beelining for cultural victory, or Genghis for domination/conquest, but I don't mind the way it is now.


Sirian Wrote:Most of the people capable of doing this will be spending their energies doing something else, while most of those who have the free time and would be willing to sink this many of their hours in to a hobby project will lack the ability.

Yes it is true.
U were talking about companies not involved in the AI development. What I propose is creating the environment for a contest: who will write the best AI, maybe some regular events/chalenges...? A Civ AI cup maybe??
Mayby some universities would be interested in creating teams, or using the environment in the educational process, like LEGO in MIT....
Not for the purpose of wrighting the new AI for the official game, but for fun and to see what ideas people all over the world have. Who knows what may come out of this.
Every beautiful woman should have a twin sister.
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Sirian Wrote:Montezuma will declare war and try to take cities, but does he ever threaten to reach domination or conquest? What use are his efforts? In the end, he does the same thing all the other AIs do: he techs along.

Although I stand by this criticism, I do want to elaborate on just how many things the Civ4 AI does right. I don't suppose I've ever compiled a list for public consumption. The list that follows is far from exhaustive, but shows off some of the most important achievements.


* The AIs do not get tied down in endless useless warring that never goes anywhere.

This is probably the biggest strategic achievement for the Civ4 AI in its plus column. The Civ3 AI got tied down in endless wars, and they were useful only by accident, in that most if not all of the AIs would get chained in to the war via temporary military alliances, and dogpiles would form against those who ran out of money (including credit).

If the AI were to be changed to remove the "inevitable warfare" chaining effect of the cheap and mandatory (mandatory to the AI) alliances, then the thing that made all that warfare "go somewhere" would be gone, and all that would be left would be small, isolated wars and mostly phoney wars that would simply act as a drag on those who get involved.

Since Civ4 changed the diplomatics and removed the cheap alliances and reduced the inevitability of the AIs entering wars, if the Civ3 AI were to be copied in to that environment, its performance would be very sad.

The Civ4 AI may only be competent at pursuing the space race, but at least it IS competent there, given an appropriate handicap to match the skills of the player. This is chiefly because the AIs can now say "no" to an invitation to join a war, chiefly through "redding out" the option to attack their friends.


* The AIs are not completely stymied by strong city defenses.

The AIs will pillage you bare if you huddle in your cities, and they will bring up siege engines that will take down city defenses if all you do is huddle behind the walls. This prevents the defender's bonuses from breaking the game, even though the pillaging ends up being universally applied (when it should not be). Making you come out of your cities to fight is a big deal. The chief problem with this behavior is that it's the only trick in the bag. If the AI had other capabilities and other strategies, and switched up from time to time, the player would not know for certain what to expect all the time.


* The AIs are competent at managing their own cities.

They choose city sites pretty well. Probably the weakest remaining aspect of their selections is managing coastlines on water-dominated maps. They too often settle one tile inland. Other than that, they are going strong. They do tend to be cottage heavy, but not as bad now as on first release. Compare to the Civ3 AI who would be running food surpluses of eight and ten extra food at cities stuck at size 12 in pre-Sanitation days. Humans can still outmanage them, but they got a LOT closer than AIs were previously getting, as shown by how much smaller the production bonuses are (and how much more effective they are) at the various difficulty levels.


* The AIs no longer cheat at spotting unrevealed resources.

This alone was worth buying Civ4 to experience.


* The AIs are aware of city maintenance constraints.

They do not mindlessly expand as far as they can as fast as they can, as they did in Civ3. Though the AI gets huge breaks on all things commerce, including maintenance bills, war weariness, and unit upgrade costs, they also carry a lot of extra units around. They are set to pause in their expansion until they can afford to incur new costs, which is how a wide open map type like Highlands, with a higher number of available land plots per civ, will see some areas remain unsettled in to the industrial age. On higher difficulty, though, where the AI gets more discounts on its costs and more bonuses on its infrastructure construction and growth, expansion happens faster, so that it may at times feel as if there is no pause. This has more do with getting the game balance right on the settings for higher difficulty than it does with what the AI is programmed to do.



Some people who read my criticisms of the AI definitely got the wrong impression. Most of the Civ3 AI's problems got solved in Civ4, but the Civ4 game mechanics open up new problems, as do some of the solutions that fixed old problems. There are also many areas where the AI does something it should be doing SOME of the time, but is doing it ALL of the time, turning a potential strength in to a wholly predictable behavior, which then becomes a liability. (Predicted equals dead, in any fair fight.)

The first step in improving upon anything is a frank assessment of its strengths and weaknesses. The Civ4 AI is large and sophisticated (for a game AI) so it has plenty of both.


For any player, there are plusses and minuses with a game. The longer you play, the more that some of the plusses fade away (as you've come to have "been there and done that") while some of the minuses begin to loom (as you become more aware of them). Each player will reach a point where the plusses shrink and the minuses grow to where the net balance is negative. Sometimes "time away" doing other things will allow a return, sometimes not. I've certainly never met any game I could play exclusively for years on end.

That I'm much farther along my road with Civ4 than just about anyone else allows me to put together scenarios that (mostly, or sometimes entirely) work as intended. Honing my sense of how to shape the game to draw something new and fun out of it is at this point the larger game for me, so I don't expect ever to catch up with players like Kylearan or Blake, or what now seems like half of RB (I seem to have been passed by a lot of folks!) who have done well at figuring out the "current build" of the game and can do things like choosing all the right techs to research to maximize trading potentials, or exactly how to manipulate the pathing of invaders, etc. I'm nowhere near running dry on new ideas for scenarios, though, or ways to add wrinkles to tried and true concepts. Plenty of gaming to go, and what looks like a solid base of players to keep the reading interesting.


- Sirian
Fortune favors the bold.
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Sirian Wrote:Some people who read my criticisms of the AI definitely got the wrong impression.

hehehe it's about me tongue
I haven't played Civ III so I don't have any comparison. My previous experience dates back to Civ I. I also played other strategy games and I am pleased with the level of Civ IV AI. I see the progress that has been made, I sure do!
My comment was intended to give the idea of letting the community work on improving AI and making it FUN thumbsup considering the fact Sirian highlighted, that software companies are reluctant to AI development.


It is easier to find weak spots, but
I could add some strong points of AI:


* The AI is using galleys/transports in warfare to roundabout enemy's defence.

Usage of the ships in warfare for flanking maneuvers makes the game harder and more interesting. Landing the units on the Players unguarded backbone has been experienced many times: Kylearan's Epic1, or my adv 6:
mihau Wrote:- I was standing at the gates of Japan Capital with all my military, leaving Tokyo about 5 turns march behind ...and Toku sends a galley from his capital (where my troops stand) with a single warrior to retake unguarded, size 1 Tokyo eek eek eek :mad:
I could do NOTHING to prevent recapturing Tokyo ... cry

/I actually signed peace (Toku proposed) and prevented wink = AI competence and flaw, 2 in 1/



* The AI is beelining for the technology useful for using resources AI controls . (?)

In the case of Calendar I observed that it falls faster on the maps where AI controls Plantation-resources. (I don't have actual proof for this. It would be good to test it on Optics+whales.)



Going back to actual topic:
Sb. mentioned no barb activity on the sea - I would also point that out. I have seen 1 (ONE only) barb galley durin a whole game...
There was more water-barbs in the Epic 2 (Archipelago, tiny islands, normal barbs). This enabled me making ground "ring defence" with inner 100% safety zones. I don't think it was good for the game. For sure it made the game more static when the known paths of barbs were secured.
I remember barbs landing in Civ I (pretty randomly, but only in few places) and I long for it ...or maybe: I expected this in epic 4.
Every beautiful woman should have a twin sister.
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Blake Wrote:So apparentely efforts to bust all the fog in the south rather than securing northern city sites was in vain - fortune did indeed favor the bold.

In my game I had a barb city spawn to the south, so the fog busting was still a good idea that I should have done.
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I had two barb cities spawn in the south, which ended up sparking me to just conquer a lot of barb cities rather than found as many of my own.

I also did not have any real barb activity on the sea. There was one galley that I killed with my galley to the near east, but no more ever appeared there. There was at least one barb galley off by that eastern barbarian isle, but it never seemed to go anywhere or do anything. It eventually must have been killed by one of the AI's explorers.

-I
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In my game I also saw only one barb galley. It was at the edge of my cultural borders, about 7-10 moves away from my fishing boat, but it never game closer.
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