My new policy *prepares for lynching*

[Hawkmoon]

Was it really necessary, for example, for someone to say they found it so 'hideous' that they turned their cape off? You don't like it? Fine, turn the cape off for a day, but did I really need to be told that? What possible purpose could that serve but to make me feel bad? Bad enough that I had to shut down the game because I was in tears...not because no one liked my cape....but because no one respected that I did.

Since I was the culprit on the "hideous" comment, I have to chime in here, in my own defense.

Yes, I know I should actually read the Guild Announcement every time I log in. Yes, I know I should probably check the forums before every time I log in, so I'm prepared for some planned event. But I didn't, and I tend not to read the Guild Announcement, because it normally doesn't change, and the green of its text gets overwhelmed by the "The skill *insert your fav skill here* has been updated on your bar for PvP," X 3 for the heroes.

So, I did not know that the cape redesign was for Courin's birthday, nor that Courin had come up with the design. When I logged in, I asked, "What happened to the cape?" I leapt to the conclusion, based on Wyrm's joking a few days earlier that he would change the cape and guild hall willy-nilly, that Wyrm was trying to get a rise out of us. Replies to my query about the cape were along the lines of "Oh, another one doesn't like the cape." Nothing was said about Courin in any way, and I logged on too late to have seen the previous bout of back-and-forth complaining, or Courin asking for it to stop.

Therefore, while what I said was, in retrospect, quite tactless, it was most emphatically NOT meant to make Courin feel bad. I'm very sorry that it had that effect, and doubly sad that it spoiled her birthday. I'd like to give her a minipet to make it up to her (because Courin is one of my favorite RBers, and I really, really wouldn't intentionally hurt her feelings), but she has all of the ones I've amassed that are undedicated, dammit. She needs to tell me what she still lacks!

Again, my apologies, Courin.

Sincerely yours,
Hawkmoon

[Courin]

Since I was the culprit on the "hideous" comment.....

Actually Hawk, you WEREN'T the culprit. I was referring to someone else entirely. So no need for you to apologize. And like I've said previously, I totally don't care that people didn't like it......to each their own. TBH, I'm not that fond of our existing cape (.....white on white??? Could it BE more blah?....) but that's just my opinion.

I was able to laugh about it for a while. When I first logged in, one person greeted me with "I HATE YOU!" and I just about laughed myself silly.....if you don't believe me, ask Zed. He kept asking what was so funny, and I was laughing so hard he had to come over to read over my shoulder because I couldn't speak. Others chimed in, and that was fine too........However, it just went on too long, and instead of moving on or tapering off, the comments became more and more nasty as time went by.

What upset me was that even after it was known that I had chosen it, and after the first couple of times I said "OK, I get it, you don't like it let's move on", there was still a lot of 'cape-bashing' going on, with little regard for the fact that every negative comment diminished my enjoyment of it.

You logged in at the end of that.....all I saw from you was the "EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW what happened to the cape?" comment, before I logged off, since a comment just before you joined in was the straw that broke this birthday camel's back.

So you do NOT have anything to apologize for in my books. Promise!

[Roland]

I'm with WarBlade on this one. Nice try, Wyrm, but I think one (catastrophic) failure is enough to illustrate that the idea, while "nice" on paper, simply doesn't pan out well for the group as a whole.

To each their own, and honestly my opinion probably doesn't count for jack since I don't play GW, but so it goes. As a member of RB, in whatever fashion others view me, I felt compelled to voice my opinion.

As for what happened, despite not being there, I offer my condolences to Courin, and a (belatedly) well-wished birthday, all the same.

IMHO, RB may be a group of individuals, rather than an individual group, but we DO share some common threads that help bind us together. I think, for most, that cape is one of those things, at least in GW. Perhaps, Courin and Wyrm (and I am not trying to single you out here), that should be respected, as well.

To each their own.

[Seijin]

OK, since I think people are really taking this whole guild cape change thing on bdays (which I actually think might be a fun idea) out of total proportion now, I'm just keeping my guild cape off.

That is my way to say that the cape is not what matters to me, the people are what matter.

For those of you who see differently and think the cape is a super-duper static symbol of all that is good in life and the guild, feel free to put me on ignore list. I don't care. It's a game. I probably won't game with you anyways because your negativity will put me off and make me want to rage quit and destroy my computer...ok well maybe not destroy my computer.

I didn't see the cape, and so I don't know what it looked like. I probably would have made jests about it, but seriously, there are times when people in this guild go too far. I don't know why. I don't care to know because the explanation is something I don't want to understand because I am limited mentally for reasons unknown to myself when arguing with people in this guild.

As to those questions posed by WB when certain situations arise...we can deal with them as they arise. They aren't unanswerable. I mean shit, we basically keep everyone in the guild even if inactive for over a year. I'm sure we can solve minor problems as they arise.

You know, I went to game 1 of the Finals with a really cute friend of mine. The Lakers stomped the Magic. I drank. I had fun. My cute friend got buzzed and pointed out hot chicks at the game, which makes her doubly cute and fun to be around. Megan Fox (the chick from Transformers) sat behind us. I thought it would just be an overall great end to a great day. But then I read this stuff. Man. What a downer when I read how Courin felt. I realize now that this part may have been pointless of me to add, but I'm still a little buzzed from the alcohol, I don't feel like deleting it, and just felt like sharing it as well as adding fun little animated smilies. :trade: :err7: :rantrap: :minion:

If you ever catch me wearing the cape...please tell me so I can turn it off...even if you hate me. I'll thank you for it. :kisskiss:

[mucco]

Too bad I lost out on the cape change and subsequent drama... I can't possibly understand what could make people go on complaining about such petty stuff long enough that you spoil a guild mate's birthday. I mean, did everyone just lose their relatives in an accident or was the cape so bad it burned some pixels in your screen? I can't honestly see any other reason for such bashing. Anyone care to explain?

Besides, I love the birthday change feature and would like to change the cape now since my next birthday is next year and I'm not sure I'll still be playing GW in 2010... Can I please? :D

[Lurker Wyrm]

Ok, so, obviously this is more of a sensitive issue than I thought it would be.

For starters, I would have run the idea past people before doing it, but I literally had the idea after I signed off the night before Courin's birthday and no one was around the next day when I signed on so I just went with it. Do I regret that decision? No.

We change the cape for holidays so what's the big deal with changing it for someone's birthday? Heck, when we change it back after the holidays it doesn't always wind up the same as it was before them. Also, when we were first picking the cape out back in '05, there was quite a bit of arguing as to what it should look like to begin with. A lot of people wanted a black background and the vote was actually pretty close. We know for a fact that not everyone enjoys the cape as it is, even though they tolerate it, so why is it that people will scream bloody murder when it gets changed for a short period of time?

Yes, the emblem was designed by a member of RB, and yes, I agree that from now on that should stay the same. But what's the big deal with changing the coloration every once in a while?

Having the silver on white cape does not make you a member of the RB community. Being in the RB guild does not make you a member of the RB community. The cape is just decoration. How many people are on our roster that we don't know at all and have never even made the attempt to join the community? Now, how many people that aren't in the RB guild have been a part of the community, joining us on variants and other adventures, chatting with us on our forums?

As long as I've been a part of RB, I've always heard the phrase "RB is a community, not a guild." The guild is irrelevant as long as you have the people; and the cape is a symbol of the guild, if anything, not the community. Does RBDiablo use that symbol anywhere? How about RBCiv? Or what about the other games RB plays? Nope. Does that symbol even appear anywhere that is not directly connected with RBGW? No.

It's a cape. It's a decoration. It doesn't identify us as anything.

[KingOfPain]

I designed the emblem specifically for the GW emblem contest, to be included as an official emblem in the game. It isn't used anywhere other than in GW.

I've also entered similar contests for GalCiv and MoO, and have won official emblems in both games. They were used as official RB emblems in game.

Anyways, I think this thing is blown way out of proportion. :err7: I am sure, the critics (encouraged to voice our opinions as we are) didn't mean to be an ass about it, rather, just didn't know when to stop.

I would just drop it

KoP

[Courin]

I think we're actually addressing two very different issues in this thread:

1) The idea of allowing a guild member to redesign the guild cape for a day in celebration of their birthday.
2) The reaction, and the subsequent way I felt, to the first attempt at this.

Now, just because it's easiest, let's deal with the 2nd issue first.

I think, because it was a surprise for everyone, that people weren't prepared for it and so had very visceral reactions to the change. I anticipated some comments, and laughed at them at first. However, to me it just went too far, and for too long, culminating in one particularly nasty remark that was, I felt, simply malicious. I had tried to express politely that I was beginning to be upset by those comments, but I take full responsibility for not stating clearly “Hey, this isn’t funny anymore. Fine, you don’t like my cape, I get it, but let’s move on, after all it’s only for one day.”

Should we chose to adopt this practice, I feel it unlikely that this situation would repeat because people wouldn’t be taken by surprise and will likely be a bit more judicious in the way they make comments about other people tastes. This doesn’t mean you can’t speak your mind, and it doesn’t mean you have to lie and say you like someone’s cape when you don’t. But if everyone knows that they cape is the way the “birthday guildie” designed it, they will likely give some consideration, as we all do in our daily lives, to the way we make that person feel by their comments and the manner that they are given. Anyone who would deliberately make comments to hurt others is a whole separate issue altogether, and all the postings in the world won’t change that type of attitude.

In any case, it’s done, I’m over it. NEXT!

Now, let’s address the first issue.

As far as I can tell from these posts, Wyrm, Zed, Fox, Seijin, Hawk, Mucco, and myself are in favor of the idea with some guidelines, with those opposed being WarBlade and Roland. Not sure about KOP, so don't want to speak for him either way.

Roland suggested that this “catastrophic” failure should illustrate why we shouldn’t do it. Now, while I certainly wouldn’t want anyone else to be upset the way I was, I also think that we are not a group that follows the philosophy of “If at first you don’t succeed, then give it up as a lost cause.” We all seem to be fairly intelligent individuals, and with a little planning, I’m sure we can iron out any issues should we choose to adopt the practice.

There’s also been talk about how the cape is a symbol of “us” as a guild. And yes, the cape does identify someone as belonging to the Realms Beyond guild within GuildWars. But so does the tag after our name. To me, these are just symbols, and what really makes us a part of this guild is the spirit of the membership, the willingness to help others, create new challenges, and overcome obstacles. However, I fully respect that others have their own opinions on what makes us “US”.

So, in an effort to resolve this, I suggest we allow democracy to do it’s thing, and open up a SEPARATE thread proposing the idea, along with:
-suggested guidelines for cape design (e.g. the idea that the guild emblem of the YingYang Dragon be required), and
-ideas for how to deal with the very legitimate issues WarBlade brought up (e.g. availability of the Guild Leader to change the cape, how to deal with guildies who have the same birthday, etc).

Should the majority of those who express an opinion approve of the idea, that will also address WarBlade’s concern that it will “essentially be the acknowledgement of the guild leader” and not the Guild, since it will essentially have been ‘voted in’. Should the majority disapprove, then we know that the cape is considered by most to be sacrosanct, and only altered for Guild wide events, like the holidays. Either way, everyone’s point of view will be heard and considered.

One thing I will suggest for the “IF we do adopt it” guildelines list…….If I understand WarBlade’s post correctly, he is essentially saying that birthdays are to celebrate friendships, and he doesn’t want to be a part of that. So to respect that, perhaps we would need to create a thread on the forums saying when someone is having their birthday celebration (i.e. the day that they arrange with the Guild Leader to change the cape, which would address the timing and duplicate birthday issues, now that I think of it) and anyone who doesn’t want to be a part of that can be forewarned, and either turn off their capes or at least be prepared to ignore everyone else in the guild for the day.

[Roland]

If we cannot have civil discussion about trivial matters that we may disagree on, then what community are we? Not one I see myself as being a part of... Perhaps that is one of the deeper reasons I left GW behind - lack of the FEEL of community.

Seijin - you are always the first to quip about all the drama, about how it bogs the game and community down, and how you'd rather do without it. Yet here you are stirring it up like kicking a hornet's nest. Do us all a favor, yourself especially, and leave out the alcohol next time. It doesn't suit you - you're better than that, and you know it. For what it's worth - I'll not ignore you. It solves nothing. If you'll not condemn me for speaking my mind in clarity, I'll not condemn you for speaking yours while clouded.

Courin - still, all apologies for what happened, on behalf of myself as part of the RB community (boy do I feel like I'm sticking my own neck out for the lynching mob here just by saying that!), despite not being around for it. It sounds like you got a tough blow for an otherwise innocuous idea. While I, personally, don't care for the idea as outlined, my voice is only one. I do not expect my "vote" to count any more than anyone else. I simply voice it for the sake of doing so. I respect your choices, and your right to make them. I am not completely against the idea, but as a person who takes great meaning from symbolism, the idea of the cape being an ever-changing representation just... grates me. If it is the will of the group, I shall bear no complaints, and I shall wear the cape as proudly in the future as I have in the past. I bear no ill will towards anyone, period. I simply felt compelled to speak my own opinions, about the idea, and about the effects it can (and has) had on the community (as evidenced here). To that, I say forge ahead if it is your wish, and best of luck to you and all who follow your views.

Wyrm - as I have demonstrated in the past, the color changes for holidays is a celebration of something recognized by most (not all) that doesn't, IMHO, change the core spirit of the representation of the guild. Some of you have (very vocally) stated that the cape is meaningless. I would like to remind you that that is merely your OPINION, and not commonly accepted fact, just like it is my OPINION that the cape stands for something meaningful and representative of the community. I respect your opinions on the matter. Please do me the courtesy of the same. Otherwise, I see no point in belonging to this place, now or in the future.

KoP - As evidenced in this very thread, we individuals here can tend to be very brash, and at times harsh. Such is our nature, and it is up to all of us to do what we can to curb that and respect one another. However, merely brushing offenses under the rug does not solve the underlying problem. Indeed, I would say merely "dropping it" would be a wise decision, but being that there is such vehemence, and seemingly (I could be wrong) targeted at people who initially had nothing to do with this whole ordeal, I see no better course than to attempt civility and discussion. Perhaps that is asking too much - if so, I shall attempt to let it drop, and thus say my final peace here if I can.

I have spoken my mind, and will be content to let it rest so long as I feel I am given the same respect that I have shown. I consider you all my friends in this community, regardless of how well or how long I may have known you. I should hope that continues to reciprocate. In any case, I take my leave of this discussion, in taking a page from KoP. May we ALL continue on together in peace and camaraderie, despite our differences.

(P.S. - I'm a holdout for D3. Once that arrives, expect to see my face around RB with much more regularity, if I can help it. You've been warned. )