[spoilers] OT4E's crusade

[OT4E]

Yeah granaries got burnt during conquest

[GermanJoey]

 - TBS attacking chumchu literally on the same turn I was going to but giving peace to chumchu right after taking a couple of cities
 - GJ didnt give any resistance to Gav which allowed him to continue pursuing victory. If GJ reacted properly and Gav couldnt gain much from that campaign. But GJ lost interest after his failed attempt to conquare Cairo. Also GJ seemed to be well prepared to my virtual invasion on his islands keeping like 10 rifles on each. Well done, mate!

OT4E, It was never that I "lost interest" in the game, it was that Chuchu and I's positions were completely hopeless unless we managed to secure some sort of huge advantage to make up for them. I go into that in more detail here, if you care, although I'm quite sure at this point that you don't. At any rate, please, in the future, if you want to do some kind of roleplay Larper bullshit game, put that in the first post in the signup thread instead of presenting what seems to be a fairly standard game setup but then pivoting it to "fucking stupid" after signups are complete and everyone feels obligated to get the game started.

And as far as not giving resistance to Gavagai, I actually gave as much as I could, and directed all "loose" units at the point of invasion towards that front while leaving my southern garrisons in place to deal with the simulataneous invasion from Cairo. Unfortunately, my two best cities were directly on my Russian border (again, I had no land) and most of my stack was on my border with Cairo, so there was not much I could do unless I wanted to be vastly biased against Gavagai for some reason. Yes, I could have spite-whipped them to the ground, but I don't think that kind of thing is sporting unless there's a valid in-game reason for doing so. (e.g., a long and bitter war, getting backstabbed by someone you thought was an ally, etc) I still did draft and whip those cities as much as I could before he took them, its just that he had an overwhelming force compared to my split-up army. FWIW, I refused his peace treaties and made him wallow in his dreaded war weariness until the end.

4) GJ was doomed because he had two fronts (even three in his paranoid imagination) and no strategic depth. However, it still was a mistake that he did not beeline Infantry and ignored Cavalry.

Gav, I was nowhere near Assembly Line. I was teching Astro when you invaded. 

As far as my "paranoia" about a "third front" with OT4E is concerned, the explanation is much more mundane. I had been relying on just a few galleys to transport troops from my two islands to the mainland, which I lost during my second war w/ Cairo. Later, when I switched into Nationhood, my mainland cities were not able to draft very much because they were whipped down. However, my islands had large pop, so I ended up drafting from them a lot just to use all 3 drafts per turn - but with no way to get them off the island. As far as whether it was right to be paranoid of OT4E at all, I would link to his PB30 game, where he wrecked his own chances at victory by randomly attacking pretty much every single civ on the map in the ancient era. And, at any rate, the Flying Dutchman did make some appearances nearby those islands, so maybe it wouldn't have been too wrong to be "paranoid" in the end.

Unfortunately, I was never able to create a real advantage for myself. First, I lost the GL race early, and had to take a consolation prize of the MoM, which ended up being awful for me once my land situation became clear. (I had a commanding land area lead early, but then very quickly ran out of expansion room). While OT4E says his GL victory was worth it, I'm confident that he would have been eliminated before turn 100 if his civ's starting spot was swapped with chumchu's - remember that he was extraordinarily behind the other players in the first 70-80 turns or so, and this can all be traced back to gimping his expansion for the GL. But, luckily for him, he had only one neighbor to contend with. Anyways, next, I tried to jump on Cairo, but an artist bomb didn't flip a key tile that I had been counting on to make fast progress. Thus, my invasion plan was slowed to where I needed to be by 1 turn on multiple turns in a row, allowing Cairo to stabilize, and thus dooming my chances of a clean conquest due to needing to force peace out of fear of being backstabbed by you, Gavagai. (OTOH, imagine if Cairo and I's starting spots had been reversed and the game played out otherwise identically - I'd have no reason at all to get peace with him, instead being able to divide-and-conquer his land until eventual victory.)

At that point, I had a terrible front and had no choice but to find a window where I could finish off Cairo. And thus we come to my big strategic blunder: I rushed this invasion too soon, as I didn't think about the fact that catapults show very little power in the graphs and thus that Cairo, who ended up having been whipping the things out nonstop for dozens of turns, had far more capability to defend himself than I realized. Thus, I walked into a deathtrap at first available opportunity (as soon as I thought you were once again tangled with TBS) after thinking that I had a gigantic power advantage over Cairo. With the loss of that stack, my loss was confirmed - all of my cities were massively overwhipped, I was vastly behind on land and city count, behind in tech, etc. All I could do was tread water until I got dogpiled.

[OT4E]

GL costed me 1 settler, not really gamebreaking. My start was weaker than others. I couldnt settle horses having normal food in the city also I think I misplaced city #2.

But I didnt notice being so much behind as you have mentioned. I made forges before some settlers but I was ind.

On our side I was first to Guilds and Engineering. Starting between 2 civs could make me change strategy but also could give me some opportunities. Contrary I found myself having top 1 power but without having proper way to use it.

[OT4E]

About defending yourself properly do you really need explanations? You didnt give up, thank you for that. But I dont believe you couldnt make 15 cata and bury one of the stacks or even both.

As general mistakes you went for Rifling and were first there but didnt get nationalism. Also you had same slow expansion as me trying to get wonders instead of cities.

Your attack against Cairo was great though. I am sorry that I pulled you to play in the setup you didnt like or intended to. I only tried to make it more spectacular.

[Gavagai]

Joey, fyi you made peace with Cairo on the very turn I was going to declare. Good read on that part.
I disagree, however, that your position was hopeless. At the very least, you always had an option to expand rowards barb cities: there was a cinsiderable gap vetween me and Cairo. Also, one should never ignore miltrad, it is more important than Rifling. Rifles are generally only any good because of draft.

[Gavagai]

Also, did Ot4e specifically demand to give two civs only one land neighbor? I do not remember that.

[GermanJoey]

Also, did Ot4e specifically demand to give two civs only one land neighbor? I do not remember that.

That's true, but what I was referring to was the holy city thing, and it looks like the lurkers and mapmaker were so flummoxed on how to balance that they ignored the otherwise glaring structural problems with the map. I was willing to just let this game go without saying anything, but if he's gonna repeatedly talk trash about me after the game is over, you know what? - fuck him!

I thought about expanding towards the barbs, but I thought that would have put me in an even worse position. Because of the foodless ring, worthwhile cities there would have been essentially land-based islands, extremely difficult to defend and tying my hands from ever conquering Cairo, which IMO was absolutely necessary at some point because otherwise I would collapse from a 2v1 when one-neighbor Cairo would inevitably need to expand beyond land he could peacefully settle.

[OT4E]

Ah you got offended that I called your defense unappropirate? I apologize. Probably it was the most smartiest you could invent within 3 minutes per turn you were spending in the game for like 30 last turns.

Go away from my thread! I will celebrate my victory on this biased map and setup.

[chumchu]

Re: expanding towards the barb cities. That was what stretched me too much. I had many cities but no backlines, so way too long a front to defend against 2 players who are intent to get me in different ways.

[OT4E]

Re: expanding towards the barb cities. That was what stretched me too much. I had many cities but no backlines, so way too long a front to defend against 2 players who are intent to get me in different ways.

I agree that you were in bad situation. And it has happened not because you ve got pressed by 2 neighbors but because at start of the mid game you were facing 2 decent armies without having stable front cities.

The only way you could manage it was to keep even more army to eliminate any incoming stack at once. But as it was in game I had options whether to attack you at the same time ore wait till you get deeper in the conflict with TBS. I think the last one could give even better result since I got troubles with TBS cuirassier stack behind your walls.