Posts: 6,667
Threads: 246
Joined: Aug 2004
I promised these yesterday, but couldn't quite get them uploaded with all the traveling stuff. Better late than never, right?
http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ4/comments.html#Epic12
I did intend the game to be easier than the original Epic 12; the main reason why there were so many victories, however, is just due to the fact that most of you have "solved" the Civ4 AI, and know exactly how to beat it. That's not a bad thing, but it can definitely lead to a lot of victories sometimes!
If we had posted this same game a year ago, methinks the results would have looked a lot different. 
Posts: 67
Threads: 7
Joined: Apr 2007
Thoughtful indeed. Just wondering though: do you see any other way to win this game other than bull-rushing Asoka?
August 2nd, 2007, 09:37
(This post was last modified: August 2nd, 2007, 10:02 by pindicator.)
Posts: 17,536
Threads: 79
Joined: Nov 2005
sylvanllewelyn Wrote:Thoughtful indeed. Just wondering though: do you see any other way to win this game other than bull-rushing Asoka?
Take a look at mostly harmless' report for exactly that
EDIT: I think that the addition of Alex on the other continent seemed to backfire on you. Your intention was to have a foreign threat to land troops against the player, but in most games he fought Mansa instead. This also kept Mansa from running away in tech. I know that when I found Mansa I was actually ahead of him in technology, and precisely because Alex and him had been fighting most of the game.
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
Posts: 6,667
Threads: 246
Joined: Aug 2004
pindicator Wrote:EDIT: I think that the addition of Alex on the other continent seemed to backfire on you. Your intention was to have a foreign threat to land troops against the player, but in most games he fought Mansa instead. Well, if you read the comments closely, you'll know that the AIs were actually Random for this game, not picked by me... 
Posts: 6,766
Threads: 131
Joined: Mar 2004
Sullla Wrote:no whipping/drafting/upgrading your way out of an AI coastal landing party! I'm sure at least one person will fall prey to that in some form.
Did anybody? I don't recall any such instances. In almost every game, the AIs kept fighting each other rather than trying to invade the player.
Quote:rather than simply following the sort of things "everyone always does" to win.
Well, I'd say an axe/sword rush is something "everyone always does" even more so than the gamey things like the CS slingshot and GP lightbulbing. Not so much in most RB games, but it's standard procedure in many other milieux. I was quite surprised to see Asoka there; Civ 3 Epic 12 started us by the Zulu, Aztecs, and Rome. 
Quote:I considered turning off tech trading for this game, but the original Epic 12 had it, and frankly I still think that makes the game easier, not harder. Thus it stayed in.
Tech trading works to the advantage of whoever is trailing, since they can swap research in order to catch up. Tech trading makes the game easier if the player is trailing, and harder if they are ahead (although any significant tech lead is already essentially game over anyway.) So yeah, on the vast majority of high difficulty games, tech trading makes it much easier. Pulling up out of my economic hole in time for the space race would've been nearly impossible without those dozen N-for-1 deals. I'm glad trading was on for this game, since it made possible alternate paths like not conquering Huayna. Without trading, the player would have no option but to conquer the whole continent to have a chance of keeping up with Mansa.
Quote:As is, you can found a city with rice/deer/copper up there, which really isn't that bad. The idea was to make the player have to throw away a city in the ice to get copper early on. I probably messed that up...
Actually, I thought that spot was well-designed. You could get the copper immediately with a throwaway city, or place the city to reach all the resources but have to wait for a border expansion to get any of them. And that border expansion would be hard to come by, with early religion infeasible, and the first ring having all junk tiles so no production to build the obelisk. Nice set of trade-offs. 
Quote:my time researching in London
London hired a scientist specialist? Did you get double productivity from Representation? 
Posts: 1,922
Threads: 68
Joined: Mar 2004
Hi,
T-hawk Wrote:Actually, I thought that spot was well-designed. You could get the copper immediately with a throwaway city, or place the city to reach all the resources but have to wait for a border expansion to get any of them. And that border expansion would be hard to come by, with early religion infeasible, and the first ring having all junk tiles so no production to build the obelisk. Nice set of trade-offs. I second this. I've poured over that decision for 10 minutes or so...
Quote:London hired a scientist specialist? Did you get double productivity from Representation?
-Kylearan
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
Posts: 17,536
Threads: 79
Joined: Nov 2005
Sullla Wrote:Well, if you read the comments closely, you'll know that the AIs were actually Random for this game, not picked by me...
No, I realize that. (In fact, it was humorous to read other reports that lamented why you "chose" to put Asoka & HC as our neighbors when they were two of the easier push-over AIs militarily.) I just saw you pointing out the strong points of having Mansa on the other continent to tech away and Alex to land troops against the player, when in fact it seemed to play out differently.
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
August 2nd, 2007, 13:56
(This post was last modified: September 14th, 2011, 10:53 by Stagnate.)
Posts: 27
Threads: 5
Joined: Nov 2005
T-hawk Wrote:Did anybody? I don't recall any such instances. In almost every game, the AIs kept fighting each other rather than trying to invade the player.
I was probably the closest, with Germany sending 5-6 landing parties of Calvary + Cannons, when my best unit was a Knight and Longbows for defense. However I was (barely) able to fend off the attacks, since they were spaced a few turns apart, but very touch-and-go. Whipping would have made it trivial.
Regarding tech trading to keep up, I realized very belatedly the importance of researching 'unwanted' techs for trade. I think that it was near Biology when I first attempted to research something the AI didn't know (based on foreign advisor info). If I had started that earlier (near Philo, probably) I think I could have at least been viable.
________
WEB SHOWS
Posts: 4,471
Threads: 65
Joined: Feb 2006
The copper spot was well designed because putting it on a tundra hill camouflaged it so that only observant players (not including me) would spot it in the first place. It didn't affect my game though, since I was rushing to Iron regardless and it finished around the time of my first settler.
Interesting comments on the scenario design as always Sulla, thanks for doing these.
Posts: 1,404
Threads: 53
Joined: Apr 2006
I liked the game, but it may possibly have been more fun without the restrictions to drafting and upgrading. They meant that a modern-ish war was much less inviting, and in my opinion a modern continental invasion is more fun than staying at home going for a spaceship. True, some people attempted modern war and achieved it, but the majority decided to stay at home.
Also it would be interesting to have a few games where you cannot declare war before about 500AD.
|
