Diplomacy Correspondence Tracking thread

[Lord Parkin]

From CivPlayers:

Scooter,

From my personal view, "last chance" period is just "extensible" period and is designed right to choose if you need to extend your deals or not. If it becomes "last chance" period this means that its size is not comfort. At this moment estimate that situation will develop precipitously and want to see what happens in next few turns. I am still sure that I will be able to evaluate and find the most comfort extension date before "last chance" period begins if you dont like it so much.

About spice and sugar, we are going to have both soon. So we definitely are not interested.

If there are things you want to discuss feel free to contact me. It seems that Decebal cant share enough time for it. Sorry for that.

OT4E

[scooter]

Sent to WPC:

Beta,

Just checking in on the turn before the war. We're pretty excited . As a reminder for both my team and yours, we'll wait until after the German team ends turn on T150, then we'll both login and declare war. We've been playing after them for a couple turns now so that there are no double-move issues. Anyway, I'll get right to business, here's a few random noteworthy things I wanted to pass on to you:

1) Our turn player offered a map trade in-game. Hopefully you don't mind, but I'm thinking it will be really helpful to both of us to trade maps throughout the war so that we always have up-to-date information on cities and cultural borders and whatnot.

2) The German team has continued to send their whole army in our direction, so we believe you guys will have very light defenses to deal with. That should allow you guys to attack pretty aggressively since you will not have to worry about their main catapult/axe stack. Hopefully you can punish them for that, and we can win this war quickly! We will let you know if we see things shifting in your direction, but right now they are almost right at the frontline with us. Wittenburg, Warrendorf, and Wilhelmshaven each had exactly 1 axe as garrison when we just walked passed them, so you should be in great shape.

3) Also, we have a chariot on the border between you and Inca. He can't make it home for the war, so we'll have him tag along with your army if you don't mind.

4) What's your availability like? Our turn player had a helpful idea - maybe we could schedule occasional chat sessions so we can sync up war-turn strategy? Are there any nights/times that work well for you? Our primary turn player and several others here are on east coast US timezone.

Ok that's a lot, hopefully it's at least slightly useful!
scooter - Team RB

[scooter]

From WPC's diplomat on the CFC question we posed:

Sorry,

I missed this mail last week.
CFC seems to be concerned about your nations progress and power. It is probably only natural for them to prepare militarily and diplomatically for a conflict.
For a few weeks, CFC has not replied to my diplomatic messages at all. I'm not sure what kind of conclusion I should draw from such behavior, but it seems that they are not interested in our relations, thus probably uninterested to ask for our help either.
With other nations near us, we have long NAPs in place, so we are not concerned about them... only CFC remains to be silent.

Best regards,
Tatu of WPC

[scooter]

From Spanish Apolyton:

well... looks like we had made a really but estimation of CFC
forces.... looks like we are really f***ed !!!!!

without external intervention we will be raised. We are actually
trying to survive as long as we can hoping to be preserved as a
specimen in danger of extinction.
We will be glad if you can convince a UniCiv and French team if the
can actually do something. We are not in conditions of any kind of
negotiation, and we are plugging for our lives. We will eternally
grateful

[scooter]

From WPC's turn player:

Hey Scooter! Yep - our team is getting ready for round 2 with the germans as well. The first didn't go quite as we had planned.

So, in response to your note:

Yes, we are set to play second in the turn. I may be up late tonight/early tomorrow to ensure that.

1.) Yep - good thinking about map trading. Let's do it each turn.

2.) Thanks for the intel on their unit whereabouts. Which is interesting, as they can clearly see our first large large stack of units moving north and west. The plan is for it to move to the forested hill tile two tiles north of Warendorf on turn 150. We will move directly on that city if the bulk of their army is still in the south.

3.) Your chariot will be welcome. I hope he is fierce enough to match our dog soldiers. :woof!:

4.) As to availability, I am also in the eastern time zone (GMT-5), so chats would be good. It has been ages since I have used any chat facility, so give me a heads up as to what we will be using. As to time, I would say anytime between 6 pm and 11 pm (eastern time).

As to your earlier question regarding CFC, Tatu's response pretty much sums it up. My sense of what I have gotten from snippets of conversations here and there is that there is concern as to how quickly RB has grown, but little concerted effort to do anything about it. Us, we are just happy to have the cities we have and a few more after the war. Mind you, you grabbing that gem site while we were off warring with the Germans still irks me , but we should have dyes hooked up soon and can talk trade.

That's it. Strength and honor! And confusion to our enemy!

Beta,WPC

[scooter]

Okay, very lengthy and interesting chat with OT4E/CivPlayers. I'll try to break it up here and there with comments. Also, Gmail is storing chats a little differently now, so that's why the formatting is a little different. Any bolded emphasis added is mine.

scooter:
Hey OT4E. one of my teammates just said open borders with you guys got canceled
did you guys do that or did somebody on our team bump it on accident?

OT4E:
yes, we closed borders
we didnt want to annoy you with accident religion spread or get your religion either

scooter:
well theocracy prevents that from happening quite nicely, it definitely wasn't a concern on our end
and your religion is pretty well-spread right? the value of trade routes is pretty big

OT4E:
last time you closed borders for the religion issue

scooter:
well we weren't in theocracy, but we re-opened them right away
anyway, we hope you'll reconsider on OB, but I just wanted to make sure that wasn't an accident

OT4E:
are you in theocracy now? i didnt notice
we get no profit for it, may be just one coin


Comment: I spaced and couldn't remember if we were in OR/Theocracy, but this wasn't really a big deal - point is they closed OB and yes it was intentional.


scooter:
huh okay, I guess that's because we're so close
Anyway, so do you mind if I ask what you're waiting to see before you decide if you want to extend the NAP?

OT4E:
heh, nice question
if i could say it right now, i wouldnt take time to observe it

scooter:
I don't think I understand

OT4E:
I mean I dont know what will happen


Comment: lots of long pauses before his messages here, like he didn't know what to say


scooter:
hah, okay, here I have a theory. you can tell me if it's crazy or true
you're waiting to see how the CFC/Zulu war goes
because you know that if CFC can win it quickly, they would like to attack us. but they know they need a partner to do that, so they've tried to get you on board.
am I close?

OT4E:
I think I never went so far, heh

scooter:
what do you mean?

OT4E:
In general, you are right. We are weak and small nation. Being neutral is becoming too expensive for us. I cant predict what happens in 10-15 turn to enter 40 turn NAPS

scooter:
Ok and yeah that's fair, I'd probably do something pretty similar if I was in your place
however just to explain from our perspective how we have to react
we're looking at a situation where we may get attacked on both sides by your team and CFC. CFC cannot declare war prior to T175
what we can't do is let the NAP with you auto-extend until T165 and then you cancel, lining up perfectly with them
This may change, but as of right now if we don't have an extension in place by T160, we will likely initiate the cooldown
we would have no choice unfortunately, and I hope you could see that

OT4E:
i understand this
dont expect something special from you
except what we have agreed to

scooter:
We really don't want to be enemies with you guys, we really like your team as you have always been very fair
what would it take from your perspective to make a NAP extension more worthwhile than a war with us?

OT4E:
you never shared any plans with us and our relations remain very cold. So I simply cant believe your words that you are happy to have us as neighbours. Let's speak directly. We are annoying, we cant even maintain OB for free. I am 90% sure that we are the next in your list.
But I have to search for the gain.

scooter:
I'll tell you what, I can explain a few things to you (that will make our actions make more sense), but I first have to ask that the first thing I tell you remains 100% private between our teams for the next few turns. Can you agree to that?

OT4E:
of course


Comment: Forgive me for the liberty I took here, but I think it was worthwhile and necessary. And it's not like it's a surpsing thing to anyone.


scooter:
Ok. this will probably not be surprising as it's not very hard to figure out, but next turn, we will be declaring war on the German team. I'm guessing you probably knew that
WPC will be declaring also. The war was their idea, and they approached us about joining with them on T150, under the condition that we told nobody and it was highly secretive
so we had no choice but to keep our plans to ourself, or else we would be violating our word
Further, CFC has more or less aligned themselves against us for quite a long time. We've had dealings with them, but we've had difficulties trusting them because they've made no effort to be fair with us

OT4E:
you have many deals as I can see
with CFC
but they probably insisted on the long paper sheet with many loopholes

scooter:
Maybe you haven't seen this through our messages with you, but the general team temperature is that our members do not like the CFC team very much, but there has been 0 complaints about your team. we trust you guys to be fair
yes! that's exactly what they did. so irritating, they do that to you too?

OT4E:
well, I cant say that they have abused something

scooter:
but they make a long agreement where you can clearly see they leave room for abuse if they feel the need to do so

OT4E:
but I think they have such deals with all teams they have any deals

scooter:
I thought so too, but their neighbor UCiv said they pretty much ignored them. so I don't know what that means
Anyway, to go further on what I was saying. Let's say in 20 turns the German team gets conquered and the Zulu team gets conquered
that puts us neighbors with you, WPC, CFC, and likely Apolyton
to me, out of that bunch your team is the one I'd most prefer to be friends with longterm.
and if you dont' believe me, we're willing to consider whatever you'd ask to prove it.

OT4E:
You dont need to prove anything. I've just never seen any attempts to cooperate incoming from you.

This could happen by to things to my mind:
1) laziness
2) being not friendly oriented in long term

For 1) I cant believe. To be honest I am very impressed by performance expressed by your team. This is not flattery. But I cant believe that it can happen that you dont know what to do.
So 2) is basic consequence. And it is not based on that you have said something wrong, Scooter. It is just my personal observation.

scooter:
I guess I'm at a little bit of a loss to understand what you would have wanted us to do differently?

OT4E:
of course we understood that you prepare an attack on Germans or WPC

scooter:
it's been difficult for us to put our trust in a neighbor who has always been hesitant to sign NAPs with us
so we've been very concerned that anything we say to you would get passed on to CFC
here's my perspective. we have 4 neighbors. 3 of them have at some point or another proposed some sort of trade/agreement/cooperation with us - you're the only one who never has inititiated anything to my knowledge. so that made us nervous all game long. but if you ask me right now for just about anything, our team would have to discuss it, but you would probably get it because it would finally be a signal that you'd rather be friends.
we made efforts to save your chariot recently too. if that had been most teams, we probably would have just let it die.
it's a trivial thing I know. I just think you're misinterpeting us having a difficult time knowing if you were going to be friendly to us or not as coldness

OT4E:
I sent you my personal gratitude, despite of it was sentry chariot and you need to have special skills to lose it

scooter:
oh that's funny, I didn't know it was a sentry! haha

OT4E:
I understand your position. You are right. That's all my blame that we have cold relations. I never meant to blame you.

scooter:
I don't think there needs to be blame necessarily. It's very natural to be more cautious with your direct neighbors than your far-away neighbors.
I know we have been that way, sometimes to a fault

OT4E:
I am not good at making deals, inventing deals, designing deals and diplomacy in general.
but I will think if I can propose something
is that what you want?

scooter:
I think I mostly just want to know if you have any interest in at least considering things. You say your main concern is that we'll just attack you next - but for example if you ask me for a game-long NAP, I have a feeling our team would very seriously consider it.
maybe that sounds extreme, but the point is your perception that you are just next on our hit list isn't accurate, and maybe it's our fault for not doing a better job of communicating that

OT4E:
May be I never mentioned, but I am more likely enter deals consisted of some cooperation, but not just common NAPs. NAP in my view is all what you call "last chance period".

Ok, it seems that I got your position. Didnt really want to bother you with my doubts that much. On your place I would choose us. This doesnt make any sense though.

As I promised I will consider your proposal. You gave me some new thoughts about forever peace. Not to say that I like such deals much. There is one simple truth about them, that one side always regret it.

scooter:
Yeah I understand that. I guess I look at the map and I wonder where/how you'd like to cooperate. Mutual wars has always been a difficulty because we won't really share neighbors that much. But if you have an idea, I'd like to hear it. There is a lot of benefit though to having a huge "back border" with one neighbor that you always know will be safe. it lets you take risks with your other neighbors

OT4E:
It is very simple.
you could propose to help us against 3rd side
you gain neutralized enemy and secure back
but that's just a first what comes to my head
As I said being neutral is very expensive, we dont have best food or biggest land

scooter:
do you have a 3rd side & timeframe in mind?
for instance, I have no idea what your relations are like with civfr, uciv, or any of your other neighbors

OT4E:
it is just the most common way too cooperate
I am not ready to reveal everything

scooter:
well my point is just - I don't know what's an attractive option to you, so I'm trying to understand what you'd like

OT4E:
ah, then I will say it more clear. I will more likely enter a campaign with CFC or any other against you, than turn into war with other side alone.
being not alone is quite important

scooter:
who are your other direct neighbors? I don't have a map in front of me, and our knowledge of that area is very limited anyways

OT4E:
hope you understand, nothing personal there
we have only border with civfr now

scooter:
no I understand that - it's part of the game
are they friendly with you? or do they not talk much? most people seem to say they are very quiet

OT4E:
they are very greedy for answers thats right
we have what you call cautious relations
Scooter, I am really sorry, but I have to go now
if you are Scooter

scooter:
oh yes i am scooter hah. and no problem, I have to leave in a couple minutes anyway. I'll get in touch with you again sometime soon

OT4E:
ok feel free to contact me if I am online
I will just not reply if I am busy
hope it is ok
see you later

scooter:
ok, sounds good. thanks for the chat, even if it took a lot of time! it was helpful. I'll talk to you later

[scooter]

Sent to WPC:

Beta/Tatu,

Thanks for the quick reply, sounds like we're on the same page! Your time window sounds pretty good for chat availability, so I'll get back to you soon. Right now it's just wait and see because it's unclear when the turn will roll and when the German team will play their half of T150.

If you're interested in a gems/dyes swap, we'd be happy to give you gems now up front so you can get the happy boost immediately, and you can just send the dye whenever you get them hooked up. How does that sound to you?

Thanks,
scooter - Team RB

[Lord Parkin]

From Apolyton:

Hey,

Sorry for the delay in answer, but still this is the general consensus of our team: We don't want to sign any nap extension just yet, we want to see the events of the coming turns and decide accordingly.

mz of the Ottomans

[scooter]

From WPC/Beta:

Hi Scooter.

I moved before the Germans yesterday, simply because the turn timer showed the turn ending in the middle of the night for me, and I did not want to miss our turn. This turn though, I will definitely wait until after they play. Our stack is adjacent to the German border and ready to cross next turn. So far, we can only see single axes on three tiles.

Gems now would be great, thanks! We could commit to sending you the first dye resource we hook up.

Now, get those war drums going!!

Beta, WPC

[scooter]

Sent to Spanish Apolyton:

Hey guys, sorry to hear that about CFC . There's not much we can do, and I don't know of anyone who seems willing to help right now.

If you'd like, you can send screenshots of the battle front (we have Paper now so it's allowed) and we'd be happy to take a stab at any tactical advice. Maybe that won't help, but I do know we have several players who are very experienced in MP war, so maybe that would be useful?