Chat with Apolyton Wrote:scooter
FYI about the civic/religion deal - CivPlayers will also sign if WPC will sign. I've talked to WPC about it, and I think they will agrere also
I'll try CivFr and CFC after those, but I don't know what they will say
*agree
MZ
so far we have one in favor one abstain.. not much activity on our side anyway.. except me
scooter
okay. yeah civplayers just has two main active players I think, so they had a pretty quick answer
MZ
we have some active members.. though i wonder if they ever beat the game on noble level.. they have interesting ideas time to time like lets upgrade our warriors and such but they accused me that I'm not democratic enough
anyway in a day or so i will declare that we sign this deal
scooter
hahah. yeah sometimes in demogames the enthusiasm can be higher than the experience level
but if you guys want to spend your gold on upgrading warriors instead of teching, that sounds just fine to us!!
MZ
now i wonder if those guys are bricks or what
scooter
haha. they're secret plants other team placed there to try to get you to do the wrong thing of course
Summary:
1) Just used this as an excuse to get an update without sounding desperate. Sounds like he's just going through the formality of letting people weigh in.
2) Sounds like it's basically just MZ running the show over there with a crew of vastly under-experienced ded-lurkers. I thought his comments were pretty amusing.
Quote:On behalf of Team Apolyton I sign this agreement.
mzprox, Apolyton
2013/7/24 Realms Beyond
MZ,
Here is our official "signing" of the EP agreement, and if/when your team is willing to officially agree, let me know and we can confirm it. I'm also going to contact others about it too. Let me know if you have any comments or questions!
* All those who sign this agreement promise to never use civic or religion swap spy missions or directly help another civ use civic or religion swap spy missions against any other team that signs this agreement for the remainder of the game. This agreement will remain in effect regardless of whether the teams that sign this agreement are at war or peace with each other, and it is fully independent of all other deals.
Teams Signed:
Realms Beyond
-----
If you guys agree, we'll start doing work on getting other teams to agree. The more the better.
Back to the drawing board. Chat with Yossarian of CFC:
Chat with CFC Wrote:scooter
Hey, I'm here now. you around? YossarianLives
Yeah, how's it going? scooter
Pretty good. Sorry to bug you about this again, but I wanted to check in on the status of the NAP proposal. We're just trying to plan, and whether or not a deal is in place affects things as you can imagine. YossarianLives
Yeah, definitely
So we voted on it, and the decision was split, but I we can't accept the NAP you proposed
The end of your war, with you guys getting all that land and WPC getting nothing, made it harder to get the NAP approved
A lot of the team sees a NAP as benefiting you a lot more, since you have more and better land to develop in peace. And we don't think you'd DOW us so we don't really need it to keep us safe scooter
Do you have any sort of counter-proposal or any modifications on the proposal that you would suggest? YossarianLives
I don't think anything that you guys would accept
I'm sure I could sell a NAP to the team if it came with extra land / cities for us, but you already said you're not interested in that
And I guess the rules don't really allow it (unless we do a coordinated war or something like that) scooter
yeah the rules don't allow it. what about some sort of aid which helps you capture more?
I don't know if you have your sights set on any new land, but that's just an idea that popped into my head recently since we can draft muskets and soon rifles en masse
Like, I know you and Apolyton could probably carve up UCiv pretty easily, or you guys + CivPlayers would probably be enough to take down CivFr.
and targets that don't do a lot of diplo tend to be the best targets. hah YossarianLives
Hmm, not sure that would work, especially if you have restrictions on who we could use them against scooter
well, of course the restriction would be you can't use them against us YossarianLives
lol, well I'm sure they would come along with a NAP scooter
Is the WPC clause we stuck into the last offer a big issue? YossarianLives
It wasn't the deal-breaker, but sure it only left us with tougher options to consider scooter
because if it made you willing to make the deal, we would be willing to remove that part YossarianLives
Well like I said, it was a split decision, so maybe that change would sway enough votes, but I kind of doubt it
Let me ask them team what exactly we would need to accept the deal scooter
Ok, yeah that's fine. The issue is I'm having trouble discerning what is the primary sticking point from your team's perspective. Like - some things we'd be willing to flex on. Like I wrote in the email - it wasn't meant to be take it or leave it offer YossarianLives
Like I said before I think it would want that peninsula between us, but I don't think we could make that work with you guys scooter
so I'm having trouble gauging if we're actually close or not YossarianLives
I think we're still kinda far apart... scooter
yeah, I mean we have our Globe Theater there and it's key to a defensible border, so it's a valuable section for us YossarianLives scooter
yeah I understand. well look, city gifting is not allowed, but if you have a counter-offer of some sort, please let me know. We balked at the idea of resource gifts in our offer... We'd be willing to consider that if there was a longer NAP commitment involved
if that makes sense
that offer we sent was more of a short-term compromise from our perspective YossarianLives
I'll see if there is anything we can come up with. I definitely get where you guys are coming from
We also see you guys losing OB with other teams, so again we feel like a NAP from us would be really valuable to you guys scooter
Hah, we're actually wanting to start closing down borders with some of our neighbors so it's certainly not hurting us. we're kind of guessing you guys will bounce into mercantilism soon YossarianLives
It's nice having Spiritual so we don't have to time our swaps with GA's, can just change the moment we need it scooter
yeah definitely. SPI starts to be really awesome at this phase of the game YossarianLives
Alright, well I've got to get going scooter
yeah me too YossarianLives
I'll try to get back to you soon with a counter scooter
ok thanks, sounds good
So basically - us getting all the land from WPC shifted their team opinion into the NAP being too beneficial to us. Not the most shocking thing ever I guess. Anyway, it's in their court now, but for now we need to proceed as if we won't have a NAP with them on T175.
RB Wrote:Hey guys. We've been keeping tabs on Apolyton and CivPlayers recently, and they seem to be in the process of building up some military. CivPlayers actually funded Apolyton towards Rifling. It's possible they may want to try to attack us, but I think it's also possible they could aim to target your team. Do you guys know anything about their plans? I just wanted to make sure neither of our teams are caught in an awkward spot. Maybe we can help each other out if a conflict arises?
Let us know if there's any way we can help you with your CFC conflict. I noticed it seems to have died down, but we do feel bad for your team being cheated out of a great merchant mission by CFC.
Dangit if I'm not determined to try everything possible to crack this crazy dogpile . So this is me chatting with OT4E of CivPlayers trying to figure out what their "price" is to walk away. It is very meandering and fruitless for awhile, but we have something very notable to discuss at the end. I'll bold that part in case you want to skim down to the good stuff.
Chat with CivPlayers Wrote:scooter
So I've never quite been able to piece this together - what did you guys gain from funding apolyton all the way to rifling?
that seems to put you guys in a really unfair position relative to them... They can defend against us pretty easily with those rifles, but they've left you with not much at all
OT4E
There are many things we cant understand too
for example how it happened that your friends WPC got nothing from your campaign?
you have your own view on what is fair
it seems to me
scooter
They didn't capture anything. They didn't attack with nearly enough
OT4E
i am not judging me
scooter
you guess what happens when dog soldiers attack elephants and longbows :P
OT4E
not judging you
scooter
of course you are, you just implied it wasn't fair :P
Anyway, you avoided my question
OT4E
you asked about what we count fair or not
scooter
I think it's a pretty valid question since it pertains to your security
I guess what I mean is
Apolyton's play makes a lot of sense. They got themselves rifles and drafting, and they're totally safe and in great shape
but I don't see you gaining anything, and I think you guys are a better team than WPC
hence my confusion
OT4E
sorry, I found right word for my statement. Yes I am a bit judging you, because I have different view, but didnt try to shame you or something like that. You know WPC saved you a lot of units because taken the main strike of Germans. Blaming them for being slow? may be.. heh
Was just wondering about your position. It is ofc not my business.
About Apolyton we are too generous, possibly. But why do you worry about us so much? I will not forgive myself if you will feel deep sadness destroying us
scooter
I guess there's no way we can convince you for sure regarding WPC until you see after the game. If it weren't for us, the German team would have conquered a lot of their cities. But what's done there is done.
as for you guys - I don't really care what you choose, I just think you guys are a pretty smart team, so there must be *something* you're getting out of that which we can't see
Like, I definitely don't believe that you guys just plan to be martyrs for their cause
OT4E
Regarding WPC I dont know much. We only chatted once and they seemed unhappy. We also saw some with our scouts... ok it doesnt matter. Winners are not the ones to be judged, yeah?
as for us. Thnx for your opinion. I'd better not disappoint you to early, right?
And finally I dont think we have a choice.
scooter
what do you mean about not having a choice?
OT4E
not have to choose much what to do
scooter
I don't see how you're forced to jump in with apolyton at all.
OT4E
What can we do in your eyes?
scooter
well, what is your goal? Are you trying to win, finish as high as possible, better your position?
those aren't always the same goals though they are similar
OT4E
to win
how can we win?
about how to finish as high as possible I will ask you later
scooter
well to win you need to beat us, CivFr, CFC, and Apolyton. This war really only ends in you being behind the other 3 most likely
OT4E
thnx cap
[He really made me laugh here . I was typing that as just the first half of my message continued below and hit enter, but in form of a log it looks pretty funny]
scooter
Apolyton might have enough to take 1-3 cities or so if everything goes flawlessly, but they know they can't get further than taht at all
CFC is free to run over UCiv or WPC and get a bunch of land
I'd just think you'd pick on an easier to dogpile target like CivFr if you want to gain some land
OT4E
ah we can give you NAP and you can probably say us "farewell, see you on alpha centauri"
you seriously think that we have a reason to play if we just give you peace, let you earn first fruits from your land? Tell me why not finish the game right now then?
scooter
why does it matter to you who wins though?
by that I mean:
OT4E
yes frenchies are easy target but they wont be willing to give us theirs land for free too
scooter
you could attack us sure. You won't gain anything, but you could slow us down. All that really does is improve CFC's chance of winning, not yours
so what difference does it make if CFC cruises along to alpha centauri or you do?
*or we do
or anyone other than you for that matter
nobody will give you land for free, but their land will be less expensive than ours
OT4E
you have more, your prices must be cheaper
:D
scooter
nah, all these catapults and guys with big guns that carry our banner seem to insist on high prices. they drive hard bargains.
Anyway. All I foresee is a big war where 0 cities of consequence change hands. You, Apolyton, us do not benefit from that, but wow does CFC ever whereas on your western side is a team with no friends and half our military size
and hey, we'd even be willing to help you out with that at no gain to ourselves. but you seem pretty set in your plans
OT4E
I was seeking for a help you could give us for a pretty long time. As number 1 and leader by much you tbh didnt make any step to make friendship with us.
And finally I think you will still win. Seriously. I have no idea why are you asking for easy life :P.
Of course we dont expect to take any land from you. We are happy with what we have right now.
About civfr we will think, may be later if you somehow keep us alive
scooter
Yeah maybe we would have been better friends if we had just asked you to fund us towards Rifling. Anyway, that offer is real. You and Apolyton take a NAP with us, pile on CivFr with Apolyton & CFC, and we'll supply you guys with some units for free. that closes the gap to us for all of you. Something to think about anyway
CivFr can't even draft right now I don't think, so they would fold much, much quicker than us.
OT4E I think better when I see numbers.
What quantity of units are you talking about?
scooter Heh. I'd have to have a little more confidence you were seriously interested because right now that sounds like a request for an exact composition of the defenses you'll face in a little bit
You are familiar with our power graph, our tech position, and you've seen a lot of our stacks in Incan land... so you have a good idea of what we have I think
OT4E no problem. I am asking if you are ready to give a half of what you have or all or a quater. I dont need the names you give to your musketeers.
not seeking for D'Artanians, just the regular ones
scooter
(sorry, busy with some things at work, was not ignoring you) And okay. Well if you really are interested in a concrete offer, I'll talk with my team about it and get back to you by tomorrow. If you're not seriously interested, I hope you'll say so and spare us the discussion
Alright. I think we should pursue this. As much as we all want CivFr to be friends, they are refusing to do diplo with anyone. Therefore, I think we should instead play the hand dealt and encourage people to aim at them instead. I think we should make them a serious offer here. A joint offer to Apolyton and CivPlayers. They take a minimum 50T NAP and an agreement to never use the troops we give against us, and we give them X units. I sort of doubt they'll accept, but that's enough interest there for it to be worth our time.
So three questions:
1) Generally speaking, should we make an offer? I think 100% absolutely yes
2) What do we have right now that we could offer if we literally gave everything?
3) What percentage of that should we offer?
I don't want to give them super precise numbers, just general numbers. They can see probably all our cities anyway, so they more or less know our whole military.
Chat with CivPlayers Wrote:OT4E
I wont promise you anything anyway, hope you understand. Seems that it was improvisation from you, not well thought proposal. As I said we are always open for reasonable offers. If you see a better way how to bring us to the win, why not? Better than what we have now I mean...
But it depends to how generous your offer is. If you are going to propose 5 muskets, you'd better not waste your time .. and mine too.
We also understand basics a bit. Your last offer was just to make peace with everyone which is good for you. Now you are asking to make peace and drop the burden of maintance you carry for your military, so it can be even better for you than to keep it. Please consider this too.
I dont ask you for exact quantities, so dont hurry to pick up your calculators... Just in general what offer in your view could work?
scooter
Yes I understand. It wasn't an offer our team has seriously discussed, just something I believe they would support. I've already posted it in our thread and I should get quick feedback. I would give you my opinion on what general amounts we would offer, but I don't want to contradict the rest of my team's wishes
so I'll give you something more thought out by tomorrow if that sounds okay with you
Sent to UCiv, making some of the changes suggested.
RB Wrote:Yuufo,
I was just about to follow-up with you, nice timing smile.
Of course we are very happy to work with you - to us this is great news. I have an idea of how we could do that, if you are interested. The last idea we suggested about Communism tech will not work. We are being threatened by neighbors, so we are abandoning that and headed straight for drafted rifles. However, would you be willing to do sort of a "research pact" with us? If you would fund us towards Rifling with gold if we paid you back with interest? We just need to get there as quickly as possible, and we'd be happy to give you back significant interest. Whatever you can spare, we'll pay it back to you and 50% extra. How does that sound?
Maybe we can chat sometime today or tomorrow? That might be an easier way to talk. I have a couple other ideas.
but they accused me that I'm not democratic enough
. So this is me chatting with OT4E of