Asterix just fishing for more information from us, as I understand his msg.
He didn't offer any info in exchange, keep playing 'you broke our deal' card.
He got info on Rome's intensions, I suppose. He could use spies to scout Rome's military. He got info on everyones techs. And he obv has visual on every India's cities.
I have no opinion on diplo with Asterix, so you probably should send this msg if you ok with it.
Rome's msg is fine, as long we don't break our current deal with Yos and DT.
If Rome reply, I think we should inform other teams about it. It maybe not in our interest short term, but its fair.
Several time I tryed to chat with suttree, but he didn't respond.
Last time I want to get his attention, so I sent msg about possible close borders from t120 (Arki said he'll close borders from t120 with SutOxy).
So, here is reply:
Quote:Eggheads,
I'm sorry to hear that you are considering closed borders with us t120. I understand that it is more convenient (for you) to chat instead of writing e-mails, but I'm not sure it was a reasonable expectation that I make myself available during my holiday break.
Island cities allow us to run without foreign trade routes if necessary, and so I hope you would consider maintaining open borders with us not for economic reasons but as a sign of the potential for future co-operation. In chat, I've gone to great trouble to explain how I think about the game: we understand the importance of using whatever surplus we earn in the micro-game to help our friends and harm our enemies in the diplo-game.
We consider you a friend, and so if you think we have secured some sort of "game-breaking" advantage, please let me know, and we can take steps to co-ordinate our growth. Please note that at Guilds you will have a military advantage not available to us until the Renaissance - many thousands of beakers later.
1. Whatever happened to the silk-spice trade we agreed on? It would be a simple thing for you to ask for added gold.
2. How can we work together to expand in a way that makes up for the land India stole from you?
3. The "first-to-Music" bonus was an important part of our game plan - what do you think our future tech plan should be?
4. Asterix is ahead of us in tech - should we strengthen or weaken his position?
All these are ways we can work together - I hope you would consider a long-term game plan and which team is best equipped to help you achieve that plan.
Regards,
suttree for the Oxysuttocratic Republic
What do you think?
EDIT: Logged in to the game. SutOxy didn't start GA this turn. I suppose it depends on their CS timing. I doubt they wanna bomb Artist instead.
With the news that Haram appears to be communicating with us, it looks like we might have hope for working with Rome after all. If Haram turns out to be trolling/lying, then this will be the cruelest thing ever.
I sent this to Team Blame Caledorn and Team Dinosaurs:
Quote:Hello everyone,
Sort of "breaking news" here but Haram (a member of the Roman team) responded with a YES to me via a PM at Realms Beyond saying that he was interested in communication. I hope he's telling the truth, because I wrote quite a detailed plan. Please read it below my signature and if all looks good, I will send this to Haram and the Rome email. In particular, Blame Caledorn might be affected by my spices proposal since I'm offering our third resource for free to them and our second one appears to be set in stone for a trade with Team Dinosaurs, but I think if this works out the benefit will be much better than what could be gained with a single trade.
Don't tell anyone else about this message. Remember that we still have a defensive pact with Rome until turn 130. I'm glad I asked to have it this long!
Sincerely,
DMOC
Team EggHeads
*********
Dear Rome,
Thank you for responding to my personal message. Here are a few requests:
(1) The information in this message should REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL. Please do not tell anyone else about these plans.
(2) Since you are logging in as "GG", I am not sure who is playing the turns. Do you have a primary turn player or do you alternate? And who is playing and conducting diplomacy?
(3) What is the best way to contact you? Haram sent me a Personal Message on Realms Beyond. We would prefer that email be the best way to communicate (ours is dick76dmoc@gmail.com), but we are happy to accommodate to your specific needs if any.
(4) If my English is confusing you, please let me know and ask which parts of my message are the culprit. I am a native English speaker and even I can get confused about the language.
Now here is the REALLY interesting part of this message. As I mentioned, I think we are at the point where all four of us have severely damaged our ability to stay relevant in this game. The four teams I refer to are you guys, Team EggHeads (us), Team Dinosaurs, and Team Blame Caledorn. This constant military buildup will only result in wasted hammers (and will benefit Team Asterix and Team SutOxy) unless we have a solid plan.
*START OF PROPOSAL*
The four of us will work together to attack India. Rome immediately moves all of their standing army (units that are not acting as military garrisons) and declares war on India once Rome's stacks are by India's border. When that turn happens and we verify that you declared war, the three other teams will offer assistance.
(1) The defensive pact between EggHeads, Dinosaurs, and Blame Caledorn against Rome will be canceled.
(2) All three of us will gift you twenty (20) gold per turn starting the NEXT turn and lasting for fifteen (15) full turns. This means that Rome will receive a subsidy of 300 gold total from Team EggHeads, Team Dinosaurs, and Team Blame Caledorn. This means you will receive 900 gold total, which should help jump-start your economy and allow you to research Currency.
(3) All three of us will sign an NAP with you until turn 160.
(4) All three of us will sign open borders with you. (We can do this earlier if you want ... let us know.)
(5) All three of us will cancel all resource deals with India, if any exist, and will not provide India with resources as long as your war is happening.
(6) In addition, Team EggHeads will be researching Calendar soon, and we have 3 sources of spices. Thus, as soon as our third source of spices is hooked up, we will gift Rome spices, which will continue up to turn 160. We estimate that our third spice will be hooked up around turn 130.
(7) Finally, depending on how quickly the war happens, Team EggHeads can also declare war on India as well, to drag some of India's focus away from Rome's troops. We have an NAP with India, but it will expire shortly.
(8) [Optional] Team EggHeads can ship a worker over by galley to help road the land between you and India for faster transportation. Let us know if you would like this.
While this is happening, Rome's praetorians should make short work of India's outdated troops and thus Rome can take over all of India's southern land, if not more. We would like to add on the following important condition that Rome will NOT make peace with India UNLESS consulting with Team EggHeads, Team Dinosaurs, and Team Blame Caledorn about this. This is because if we work together, we can force more concessions out of India, increasing Rome's spoils of war.
*END OF PROPOSAL*
Why should the four of us do this? Team EggHeads, Team Blame Caledorn, and Team Dinosaurs both gain security on their border and can use the military for Hereditary Rule, future cities, and other things. But what is important is to see the benefit for Rome.
*BENEFITS FOR ROME and WHY INDIA IS THE BEST TARGET*
(1) India is the best target for Rome because they have The Pyramids, which is built in a southern city and is thus close to Rome's borders. Once you get The Pyramids, the Representation civic will also help your economy rebound (and do not forget that we are gifting you gold while this is happening!).
(2) The obvious benefit is that Rome will be able to get all of India's southern lands.
(2) Furthermore, India has expanded very fast early and are lagging behind in technology, so they will not have macemen or other advanced units prepared.
(3) Yuufo (the player for India) appears to be bored with the game, since he is playing turns in 5 minutes. HE IS UNLIKELY TO BE PREPARED for a full war. This is in contrast to Team EggHeads, Team Dinosaurs, and Team Blame Caledorn, who have been fully aware of your military buildup for the past 50 turns and have compiled a stack of units by our borders for this purpose.
(4) Finally, Rome gains 3 solid allies and gets FULL SECURITY from all its other neighbors due to the turn 160 NAP.
(5) Rome also gets a FREE happiness resource from EggHeads (spices) for about THIRTY turns.
I hope you can see that we are genuinely interested in helping out your team in this game. No matter what, the other teams CANNOT offer a better deal than us. =)
We look forward to a response providing details regarding the turn you can declare war and receive assistance. If it will take a long time to respond, please at least give us a confirmation that you got the message. For example, a response like "received message and will write back in detail within 24 hours" would be great. Please communicate with us, because that is the most underrated aspect of a full diplomacy game like this one. If you agree to the plan we can all sign open borders with you to increase your trade route income.
Sincerely,
DMOC
Representing Team EggHeads
I also sent this to Asterix:
Quote:Asterix,
Thanks for the response. Since we communicate a lot, I have a feeling that we could be more efficient, so I'm going to number my points in response to yours. That way, if you want, you can respond to specific points and that will make it clear what we're talking about and that we won't be missing some otherwise pertinent information in our messages. You certainly don't have to reciprocate ... this is just a thought I had.
Please keep this information confidential.
Quote:Just a brief reply - I never said NAP with me till T250 was a condition of a Big Coalition, just asked you to extend it beyond T120 and said I would like it to be longer than till T150. You said you will discuss it with Teddy and get back with me, you never did.
(1) We did not discuss it back with you because you had retracted your offer to help us conduct our diplomacy with Rome. While we trust you, it seemed like the relationship wasn't reciprocated.
Quote:BTW, if we declare we would not pursue cultural victory, would you be more interested in long term NAP with us? Your current position is forcing us to seek long-term NAP with Suttocrats, so you approaching us at the same time saying that "we should do something about Suttocrats" is somewhat ironic - if you will continue to act the way you do, we have no choice but to become their best friends/vassals to just survive .
(2a) If you promised not to pursue a cultural victory, then yes we would definitely be more interested in a long-term NAP. I don't think we have one at the moment, actually. Would you be interested in an NAP to turn 175, to be kept confidential from other teams? Further details for cooperation can be ironed out in future emails covering different cases (e.g., if no cultural victory, we'll sign a longer one ... if we promise to have an even split of land for some future military conquest, that can also change things, etc.).
(2b) Also, I would be very wary of signing a long NAP with SutOxy, since I feel like they are in the best position to win the game. They just won the Music Great Artist (and they have Mausoleum) so I suspect they will start a Golden Age and attack one of their neighbors to get into a very strong position by the Renaissance era. I don't think they ever had plans to attack you, even if India does attack you, because both Arkipeller (Orgynized) and classical_hero (Ponies) are significantly weaker and less technologically advanced. In fact, we were surprised to see that Team Rome actually has just as much total food worked as Team Orgynized! Talk about a fall from grace for Orgynized.... Team SutOxy will literally walk over their two other neighbors at ease. A long NAP with you is exactly what SutOxy need to win the game, in my opinion, but Team Blame Caledorn and us will try and figure out something to do about them. Feel free to offer your ideas, but even if you don't, I'll fill you in on any plans we might have, and we'll contact SutOxy to see what they're up to.
Quote:So you are saying you are still working with Rome and Dinosaurs on the Big Coalition? Please confirm. How is NAP with India part of it? Why you do not want me to get involved?
(3a) We are working with Team Blame Caledorn and Dinosaurs, NOT Rome (it would be great if we could work with Rome, though!). India's NAP plays no part in this, as it was signed a long time ago and will soon expire.
(3b) Amazingly, Rome has actually responded to my recent request to work together with them. (This is the first time in the entire game they've done this!) I am in the process of sending them a detailed plan that involves them attacking India in exchange for us offering substantial concessions to them. I'm sure you'll like this idea. The best part is ... you don't even have to do anything right now! If the plan with Rome works, then Rome can take care of India for both of us, and you don't have to lift a finger!
(3c) We definitely want you to be involved in what we do later. If you have ideas or suggestions on communicating with Rome, that would be greatly appreciated. In addition, as long as we don't break any of our older confidentiality agreements with other teams, we'll let you know if the plan is going to be put into action, so you will get a heads-up on whether you can stop worrying about India.
Quote:I backed up from the talks, as you said you believe that us having good relations with Rome is a proof both our teams are cheaters .
(4) I concede that I went a bit out of bounds on that. To clarify, during that chat I was getting a bit stressed over the whole Rome situation, and was trying to decipher Rome's weird actions. In addition, other teams, such as SutOxy, referred to you as "Maga" when they conversed with us, which only raised my confusion. (It seems like you weren't aware of this when we chatted about this.) However, given what you've said, I will just chalk it up to some weirdness from those teams and will not raise this issue any further in our future conversations.
Quote:Btw, now India has Open Borders with Rome, too - wonder what is your take on that?
(5a) I did notice that, and I have no idea what this means. On the one hand, it could mean Rome is communicating with them (who knows?). Or it could mean Rome is scouting their defenses for attacking them. (I think we both prefer the latter case!)
(5b) In fact, I just sent Yuufo an email on January 1 asking him for an update on his situation. If it turns out that he has plans to attack (or not!) then we can refer you to the information promptly AND we will also attempt to extract futher details from Yuufo. I assume you'll be okay with this? I checked our earlier email exchanges to Yuufo to make sure that I wasn't crossing any lines, and Yuufo and us did sign an earlier confidentiality agreement that pertains to information such as the NAP, border agreements, etc. but if we talk about something new, I don't see why I can't just give you the info dump.
(5c) Did you notice that not only has India completely slowed down on expansion and are thus lower in score, but Yuufo is also playing his turns in 5 or fewer minutes? I'm having a very difficult time thinking that he's planning for a war given that he seems to have checked out of the game, but again, we've asked him about this and we will be keeping watch on his power graph, as we have been doing the entire game
Wishing good luck for us in this game,
DMOC
Team EggHeads
And finally, it's time to respond to SutOxy's message (which you can see here). Here's a proposed draft (I did not send it):
Quote:Dear SutOxy,
Sorry about the abruptness of the news. I have to admit that I (DMOC) honestly thought that we would maintain open borders throughout the duration of our T150 NAP. To respond to specific points:
2. We're happy to work together. I'm not sure if there's anything useful we could do together now that would also be fair to you.
3. Well, safe to say that I think you already have a good plan for this, but I suspect that you'll make a Liberalism beeline. You have a Golden Age essentially "banked" so I'm not sure if anyone can catch you if you're also going to be using The Great Library and The Parthenon for Great Scientists.
4. In general, I'm always inclined to weaken a neighbor's position. I'm not sure how your diplo has gone with him. Do you have resource deals, NAPs, or other agreements set in place? Asterix for some reason seems to be far more worried about India when in reality your team is in the much stronger position.
Sincerely,
DMOC
Team EggHeads
The question is, do we want the open borders? How much trade route are we getting from them? The above message assumes we'll keep open borders. At the very least, don't we at least want to work together for an agreement, as in point 2?
Last thing Teddy --- what did you and Team Orgy (Arkipeller) talk about in chat? If Arki is becoming enemies with SutOxy that's pretty important information.
I can see why a lot of players won't like full diplo because of the amount of effort good diplomacy takes, but when it works out, it's definitely a beauty. I added this post to the original thread so lurkers can see some of this stuff while it's in progress.
Quote:Sorry guys, my previous PM was just a joke. I couldn't help myself, sorry
I'm not a player in this game. I was supposed to be a dedlurker, but there is simply nothing to lurk. It's Barteq on his own in charge for that Roman living torpedo.
Good luck!
Sorry, but it's these kinds of players that ruin full diplomacy games. I don't know why Haram decided to do this, nor why Barteq is shooting himself in this game and why he's refusing communicating, since he is not playing to win. Next time, we should just ban players like Barteq in future games. I'm trying to play to win, which is why I invest significant time in terms of planning and writing diplomacy messages (such as the one in the previous post!).
To expand on this: I recall seeing a 'tier list' of players somewhere. Let's suppose I'm playing in one of those games against all the top players. If that ever did happen, I'd still be playing to win, and would still develop a detailed micromanagement plan, etc. But suppose I instead decided to follow Rome's route this game and take a civ such as Egypt and, upon getting horses, just pumped and pumped out war chariots all the time and ignored development to the point where I'm obviously out of the game. Full diplo or not (I don't think it would matter) all of my neighbors in that case would be flaming me and saying stuff like "I'll never play with him again," kind of like what people were saying about Nakor in Pitboss 13.
I logged into the game to browse a bit here and there (added/deleted a few signs, etc. but nothing major), and noticed something peculiar --- we can trade maps with Arkipeller. That means he has Paper, which we won't get for a while. When did he get this tech? It had to be just recently, since we probably would have caught that early. But I am confused why he researched Theology and Paper when techs such as Monarchy would be very useful (no one else in this game has switched to Hereditary Rule except us ...). I can only assume he'll be building the University of Sankore.
As far as 'advanced techs' go, we know for sure now that Orgynized has Theology and Paper, and SutOxy have Music (plus its prerequisites of Literature, etc.) and India/Asterix have Metal Casting and Asterix has Civil Service.
Also, Yossarian has 14 cities, the most in the game. We need some more to match up with him. And as an FYI, we are getting just 3 gpt from trade routs with SutOxy.
14. UCLA (University of California, Los Angeles)
15. UC San Diego (University of California, San Diego)
16. UMaryland (University of Maryland, College Park)
17. Columbia (Columbia University)
18. Harvard (Harvard University)
19. UPenn (University of Pennsylvania)
20. Brown (Brown University)
EDIT: An interesting PM exchange with Haram.
Quote:First, remember that we tried to be friendly at first to him (as we did to everyone in the game) which would have allowed him to avoid this kind of situation. For instance, if he had asked me for a turn 150 NAP when we first met ingame, then I'd bet I'd be willing to do that despite my aversion to signing long NAPs (and I might even offer a free worker or something if he demanded that as payment). It was only because he was completely nonrespondent and pumping out praetorians that we signed an defensive pact out of concern.
Second, after we had signed a Defensive Pact, what Barteq should have done is recruit India on his side, since the three teams of us, Blame Caledorn, and Dinosaurs were begging him to attack India. At the time we signed the Defensive Pact, India was very much an active player in diplomacy (unlike now, so I'm afraid his chance has passed) and was not close to us (despite Asterix's claim that we're in a long-term alliance) and had Police State + Forges (the ultimate combination for pumping out military at the time) and was in the lead in city count and is financial so they can afford more military than us! If Barteq had done that, then India thinks: "Hm ... I've got a dangerous, aggressive Rome who wants to be my ally, and in return ... I have to attack Team EggHeads, who have expanded too quickly and are crippled in terms of maintenance costs ... and whose cities are culturally pressuring my border cities ... and appear to be a major player in the game." India had an enormous incentive to take their neighbor down a notch or two (and they have a still-ongoing NAP with their other neighbor, Asterix).
Third, what I was hoping to do was to prevent the situation in which he thinks we'll just attack him after praets become obsolete. If you notice in our thread, I posted a detailed plan that involves all three of us signing NAPs to turn 160 and all three of us subsidizing him with gold. If Barteq thinks he's going to get attacked on turn 160, then he should demand that we stagger our NAPs, e.g., EggHeads' NAP ending on turn 200 (so he has time to tech to units that can stop cataphracts/cavalry, and honestly turn 200 is close to the end of the game) Yossadorn's to 180, Dinosaurs (the least threatening team so he can attack them later as he wishes) to turn 160. And honestly, does Barteq really think Blame Caledorn will attack him if Blame Caledorn's eastern neighbor (Aivoturoso) is incredibly weak and has no military?
All in all, there are so many possibilities that Barteq could use to help out his position in the game, but unfortunately the real winner out of this is SutOxy.
Those are my current thoughts right now. Feel free to offer additional comments later.
Haram Wrote:Thank you for your proposal, I'll just global lurk.
Now, referring to the situation in PB14 (and the post you placed in your spoiler), please answer me one simple question: What did you expect Rome to do after signing defensive pact? Did you expect him to say: Ok, my game is already screwed right now. I will just stop building military and let them take my land, cause this game is not fun anymore? That's what you expected? That is exactly what Nakor did in PB13.
I don't know what Barteq is thinking right now, but I can tell how I woud read your first PM: Hmm, now thay see my huge military and they want to talk. It's just because they feel vulnerable an the moment and they want to buy some time. After my prets become non-factor (knights/maces) 3 of them will rip me apart.
Quote:And finally, it's time to respond to SutOxy's message (which you can see here). Here's a proposed draft (I did not send it):
We were talking about Silk<>Spice trade with sut before we ask DT.
If we wont trade it with sut, he will do simple trade with Asterix.
Sut offer some GPT compensation and we could start this deal on t121. Not sure when we can trade with DT and if Rome's actions will null this deal later.
Saying all this, I don't think we should trade with sut. Just some diplo info to consider.
DT is closer ally and he is not that advanced.
But just to mention, sut will have no problems to trade Silk<>Spice with another strong contender.
I did chat 3(4)way with Arki, Yos and Cal. You can read it in our mail account.
Arki might be interested in buying GS from us.
I said we should discuss and if the price is right we might help him.
He'll got 2nd GP before t130, but he isnt sure it will be GS.
As Arki give a hint, his NAP with suttree ended on T150.
We were talking about some possible actions against runaway civ. You should read the full chat log.
-----
Sad it didn't work with Rome. But we can't blame the guys not answering our msgs in Full Diplo Game. Its up to them.
And after I read ur last edit, lets keep this channel open for now. I trust you on diplo completely.
BTW, Yos told me Rome is aware of our def pact ended on t130. I asked where they got it and he assumed it was DMOC>Asterix>Rome.
I can't remember now if u msg our end date of def pact to Asterix, but if u did I'm sure Asterix was glad to share this info with Rome. It could say something about their relations.
-----
Lets wait till the turn rolls finally and start talk domestic again.
I'm not remember much at the moment.
Quote:And finally, it's time to respond to SutOxy's message (which you can see here). Here's a proposed draft (I did not send it):
And after I read ur last edit, lets keep this channel open for now. I trust you on diplo completely.
BTW, Yos told me Rome is aware of our def pact ended on t130. I asked where they got it and he assumed it was DMOC>Asterix>Rome.
I can't remember now if u msg our end date of def pact to Asterix, but if u did I'm sure Asterix was glad to share this info with Rome. It could say something about their relations.
What do you mean about "keeping this channel open for now"?
Also, I checked all my PMs I sent to Asterix and all email and all chat exchanges (using the search feature). I never told him our defensive pact was to turn 130. He got the information from another source.
Seems like we might have some interesting diplo options for the future. What do we do with a Great Scientist or a Great Engineer, depending on what comes out of Berkeley? Do you think if we got an Engineer we could rush Taj? I think SutOxy will have forests prepared so they'll prob 1-turn it unfortunately.
Edit: One admittedly slimy way to ask Asterix where he got the info is to send him an email (or better yet, in chat) and say something like: "by the way, I never told you this, but our defensive pact is 140..." and see if he corrects us by saying t130. I wouldn't do this, though. It's more likely someone else forgot they told him.
I've been going back and forth on this, but I think ultimately it's best if we did the spices/silk trade with SutOxy, as you mention. We're getting only 3gpt from open borders with them. How much are they willing to offer as gpt compensation so that we keep open borders?
If we were to do this, we'd have to convince one of Blame Caledorn or Dinos to stop one of our spices trades. Ideally, we could tell Dinos that they need to be worried about SutOxy so the trade we're doing will make them cost more than a trade with Asterix. (And since they seem to be in a "cold war" with him (no clue what that means, honestly) then they might be willing to give up the trade.)
It's not so bad if we have to trade all 3 spices though (we'll get silk and hopefully wine from Blame Caledorn), and if Rome declares war on them on turn 130 (in all likelihood) then they'll probably lose their silk and the trade should be canceled automatically (I hope). Of course, until then, we could actually trade Blame Caledorn our second source of silk to them for wine, and just renegotiate later. (Do they need silk?)
Last thing --- I'll try and see if we can get a heroic epic unit with the chariot. If Rome attacks that chariot won't make a difference. I labeled the unit 'barbie', it only has 3 xp so it's a long shot but let's try and move it starting next turn anyway. Also, if we assume Rome attacks Dinos with everything, then UIllinois should get a library soon, it'll be okay with some cottages, coastline, and silver, and puts culture control over the tile above silver if Rome were to for some reason settle there. (Borders set to expand in 9 turns right now.) Edit: actually a hindu spread should be done as well...
Seeing that screenshot reminds me that city 18 should really be 9 of that location ... keep forgetting to change it.
DMOC, if you want to move chariot there -- you can do it this turn. As I remember, there is unmoved 3xp chariot on the silver hill.
I doubt we can find enough barbs right now, but we can explore a bit.
Stanford now on wealth, but it will switch to missionary when its time to finish it with 24hammers chop.
I was planning use that missionary for UIllinois.
.
I added this post to the original thread so lurkers can see some of this stuff while it's in progress.
I don't know why Haram decided to do this, nor why Barteq is shooting himself in this game and why he's refusing communicating, since he is not playing to win. Next time, we should just ban players like Barteq in future games. I'm trying to play to win, which is why I invest significant time in terms of planning and writing diplomacy messages (such as the one in the previous post!).
If Barteq had done that, then India thinks: "Hm ... I've got a dangerous, aggressive Rome who wants to be my ally, and in return ... I have to attack Team EggHeads, who have expanded too quickly and are crippled in terms of maintenance costs ... and whose cities are culturally pressuring my border cities ... and appear to be a major player in the game." India had an ![[Image: Civ4ScreenShot0456_zpscabab5b8.jpg]](http://i1298.photobucket.com/albums/ag43/DanielRealmsBeyond/RB%20Pitboss%2014/Civ4ScreenShot0456_zpscabab5b8.jpg)