SevenSpirits Wrote:My conclusion from scooter's sim is that early BW is quite costly (ignoring a possible coastal start with fishing/mining for the moment). This is because the start pretty much requires AH for the pig, which is easily the best tile available to us, and AH is expensive too. So I see a few options:
I would also conclude that Agriculture/Mining is not worth it, so we can ignore China which you really only ever take for the starting techs anyways.
SevenSpirits Wrote:1) We defy the will of the gods and mine the pig, allowing us to skip AH. This would probably be combined with BW since we have mining and beakers to spend, and pottery is crap if we can't grow.
2) We avoid needing AH by going WB first and teching BW with a fishing/mining start, then whip our worker after growing on fish. And we can mine the pig if we want, or just chop. England/Rome/Carthage are all options with these techs; I think I like England > Carthage > Rome. EXP Cothons are not bad. IF this is decnent, which I have major doubts about.
3) Ignore mining/BW at the start. In this case I think I like Agri/Wheel the best, it's just ridiculously versatile when you are willing to ignore mining for a bit. We can settle in place and open AH-pottery directly.
#1 - My gut says this will not go well. Though someone can definitely test it if they're able.
#2 - I would like to see this tested. I'm pretty skeptical of moving for fish, but it might just work.
#3 - From the official tests I did and the unofficial tests I did when I was screwing around, I did really get the sense that ignoring BW for awhile is for the best. It's less valuable than Hunting and Pottery IMO. So I'm coming around on something like Agri/Wheel and ignore BW.
SevenSpirits Wrote:I'm very unexcited by a hunting/mining or hunting/wheel start, because all those civs suck. (Khmer was OK, the rest are worse.) I think at this point I would vote for Sumeria. There is also the option of (gasp) not picking a civ based on starting techs. We should check out how expensive it is to choose Aztecs or HRE, as those civs do have real benefits attached. But I don't think they will be worth it.
So it's clear, I'm not advocating picking a civ based on starting techs, but rather weighting it into the decision appropriately. If we like two civs a lot and one has better starting techs, that should factor into the decision... But I don't think it's wise for us to take an otherwise valueless civ purely for the starting techs here. Sure I'd rather have the Aztec UB than the Sumerian UB, but does it outweigh the quicker start Sumeria will get? I kind of doubt it.
FYI I can and will do some more testing, but not until much later tonight as I won't be at a Civ-capable computer until then. I'll be around to comment on any sims that do get done.
Xenon Wrote:Additionally, the delay in researching Mining is due to researching Fishing for 4 turns. Fishing does not help immediately in the simulation, so it could be cut out from the starting plan.
In order to tech Pottery, you need Wheel and either Fishing or Agriculture. Since we do not need Agriculture for this start, any civ that does not start with Agriculture will want to tech Fishing pretty early to unlock Pottery. You could just start with Agriculture and eliminate that need, however that means you'll have to tech either Wheel or Hunting rather quickly. Also, teching Fishing may actually be of value - we could find something really useful right next to the fish and choose to settle there rather than deer.
Good comments though - that certainly shows why Agriculture/Wheel is quite good for SIP.
Sims we should still try
1) Setting 1NW with a couple different tech combinations
2) Seven's #2 suggestion of a fish move
3) An attempt at a non-terrible Aztec/HRE start.
4) An opening where we mine the pigs instead
I ordered those in rough order of priority.