WW23: The Heart of Gold

[pocketbeetle]

I still would like to hear pocketbeetle's explanation of his uber vote.

So why uberfish out of the three Group A voters?

I've made no secret that I'm unhappy with uberfish's play so far.
He has significant history with these WW games, yet while other experienced players identified and avoided voting for Ryan, he was and apparently still is content with his vote.

Yeah well, at some point we need to draw a line and actually policy lynch people for pulling this sort of anti-town nonsense on day 1. I can't be sure Ryan is scum, but I'll take what I think is a better than average chance since he made one post and it was a bad one. To be honest, I was hoping being the lead wagon would draw Ryan out of the woodwork and was planning to flip back to Gaspar if Ryan posted something satisfactory and nothing else changed.

Gaspar complaining about the game being dull is funny. Personally I'm happy I don't have to wade through 30 pages of day 1 in which 80% of the posts are useless noise.

I don't like that last point in particular, makes it even harder to catch wolves if nobody talks.

Other players have made various comments about him that I'm listening and paying attention to:

I'm also willing to lynch Uberfish. I think his play so far fits his scum MO. A couple of jabs, but pulling his punches a little. He could be poking at his scumbuddy, or testing the waters to see if anything will stick on a good guy.

Which I find pretty scummy. Only after reading this would lynching Uber have been option for me.

I voted Uberfish because he made a couple of cheap jabs during the day, without really following through. His reaction to being bandwagoned was also scummy IMO - "which of you is scum?" as a rhetorical question, instead of actually trying to work that out. Sounds like if there even was a scum on his wagon, it was his buddy. It is also noteworthy that he went from saying "I'm staying on Gaspar" to taking the very first opportunity to hop off him. And when he originally did say that, people were already talking about Ryan as a fallback lynch, so it was really in the cards that there would be an opportunity to switch.

It wasn't a late bandwagon from my point of view - I started it well before the deadline. And when Ryan didn't even vote to save himself, I thought it was pretty clear he was innocent, so Uberfish felt like a better lynch.

^ zakalwe's thoughts at the end there almost mirroring my own above.

I noted that uberfish didn't initiate the bandwagon on Ryan, but was extremely quick (30 mins) to follow up on it.

Ryan, for the same reasons as Serdoa. Awful first post.

His defense so far has been:

Hey zak - you should very well know that my reaction to unfounded accusations against myself is contempt/dismissal/outright ignoring them unless I think I might be mislynched. PB hasn't been an active werewolf player so I can see him coming from a perspective where he has no idea what on earth a scum tell from me would be (hint: read the last 2-3 games), but you? You should know my meta better than this. I poke people on day 1 a lot. If the response isn't suspicious I don't follow up - Why would I?

So uberfish is saying that he's playing exactly as he always does as a villager on Day 1. Personally I read that as a negative thing.
If you are making a point of deliberately and carefully mimicing how you always play as village early on, and are aware of it, then how on earth (sorry, in space) is one to tell when you're a wolf? Because you are clearly and carefully paying attention to how you behave in order to give no tells.
Sorry, but overall this comes across to me as contrived and carefully crafted, not just naturally playing. And the only time you have to be careful and contrived is ofc when you're a wolf.

Uberfish though is the mostly likely of the three.  I've sensed an underlying frustration from him all game that really doesn't have any good reason.  From my experience, votes don't really bother him when he's a villager.  If he gets annoyed as a villager its usually either because of a particular stupid town lynch (which isn't the case here since he was part of the lynch) or because of the quantity of posts (also not an issue here.)    I expect more investigation from uber, he was way too happy to have the day end once Ryan put his foot in his mouth.  Village Uber I think keeps the pressure on.  Scum Uber is worried if he gets people talking they start talking about him more.

Like I said, I don't really go for character behaviour/tone tells, but I definitely agree with the last part of what Gaspar says, Uberfish seemed too content with sitting back once he'd voted for Ryan. One of the key points about being a villager is the uncertainty, the second guessing yourself, Mattimeo exhibits it to some extent in post #66. The only time you're certain in this game is if you already have all the information on who is village, and that means you're a wolf. Where is the uncertainty?

Uber's response to being questioned on this is:

I was applying pressure. To Ryan. I wanted to force him to actually start participating.

Hold on, didn't you criticise Bigger here for doing exactly this?

... do you really believe that without your vote PB wouldn't have posted anything?

Not consistent imo.

I like (as in, positively adore) Mattimeo's post #99, and I think it's a valid point that Serdoa's death doesn't particularly implicate Uberfish.

Can we examine/ you explain the reasoning here please.
I follow the thinking, but I'm not reaching the same conclusion.
In my opinion, zalakwe, Gaspar and I all voted for uberfish, while Lewwyn expressed a post-day/early night intention that he would have voted uberfish given the opportunity.
Given that situation, a night kill on any of these would have reflected badly on uberfish and possibly incited a revenge lynch from the village (that might sound simplistic, but as Lewwyn said we are often sheeplike).
This is a positive thing to do for the wolves if uberfish is village, a bad thing to do if uberfish is a wolf. (I'm basing this on a possible village reprisal lynch having greater momentum than +/- 1 vote.)
In my opinion it makes more sense that if uberfish was a wolf, to kill one of the Group A voters instead, confident that he could argue his innocence the next day, in some part based upon it (indeed as he has already done and consequently zakalwe has changed his vote). And killing the least scummy/most veteran player(?) among the Group A voters, ie Serdoa, is therefore a sound interpretation of the events?



The above are lots of little points, none of them are decisive ofc, maybe I'm even tunnel visioning too much (look uberfish - uncertainty!).
But to summarise, I feel he is the most wolfish out of the three (Uberfish, Bigger, Mattimeo) and that we gain the most information from lynching him at this time. I would like to know his alignment for certain in order to have an idea of which direction to go. If he flips village, then that suggests we look in Bigger's and Mattimeo's direction with slight questions to zakalwe and Gaspar, while if he flips wolf then we need to strongly look at Bigger and Mattimeo (poor you two ) and something approaching potential clearance that Gaspar, zakalwe, Lewwyn and myself are villagers.

Conclusion, lynching uberfish gives more information than a more random lynch in someone else/Gaspar's direction.
What does lynching Gaspar tell us if he flips villager?
Not a lot imo.

uberfish