OK, there's been too much Civ in this thread recently, let's get back on topic! 
Soo...I watched all six movies this week and came away feeling all in all it was pretty awesome. (Should that be behind a spoiler tag? No? OK!) Full disclosure, I hadn't seen most of the movies for quite a long time, so I went in with an open mind. Here we go!
Episode I - The Phantom Menace was still janky, because really, Jar Jar is just not necessary. He should have been a good character, but he didn't totally ruin the movie like I had remembered from when I saw it before. It was more like, "OK, he'll be gone in a minute", and then he was gone and things were good. Maybe the plot isn't great, but the series has to start somewhere, and the Trade Federation thing seems a good enough way to show that a small problem can spiral out of control, given proper guidance by malevolent forces. Still eating popcorn, despite Jar Jar.
Episode II - Attack of the Clones, I really remembered disliking it more before watching it again. I think my distaste for the movie before centered around the wooden portrayal of Anakin, since he was all bratty and pretty flat as a character. Teen rage much, guy? Oh, wait...well, I'm older now, and maybe have a bit more of an understanding that kids his age maybe are that way a little bit. It doesn't totally excuse the flat portrayal, but I at least see what Lucas was trying to do there. As can be said with the Episodes I and III, better directing would have helped (I'm looking at YOU, George Lucas!). In spite of it all, and the real lack of useful plot development, Episode II was fun to watch, taken just as a popcorn movie -- OH LOOK, more light saber action! And less Jar Jar than Episode 1, a fine example of addition by subtraction.
Episode III - Revenge of the Sith, I liked it the first time I saw it at release (unlike I and II) and really enjoyed it this time around. Anakin felt less petulant and more angry watching it this time around, which put him more in place with what he should have been as he transitioned to the Dark Side, and made the movie more enjoyable to boot. As the movie went on and he made the transition toward the end, that was what the first three movies had been building toward, and him going over just felt so good. There's still some of the same problems with corny dialogue as elsewhere in Episodes I and II, but do you guys remember how bad the dialogue is in IV-VI? "I've got a bad feeling about this!" Yeah, it's a problem throughout the whole series, so it's hard to punish Episode III about it much more than any of the others...although "Annie, you're breaking my heart" is a bit too much. Anyway, Anakin becomes Vader, and gloriously so. By far the best of the I-III series. Also, much less Jar Jar screen time in III, probably not a coincidence there.
Which brings us back to the originals. Maybe I'm going to get booed for this next one....
Episode IV - A New Hope, it turns out, is my least favorite of the original three movies! And to be honest, after watching Episodes I-III right before A New Hope, it was almost a dull movie. To be sure, lots has changed in film making in the decades between IV-VI and I-III being released, so I had to re-calibrate my expectations to get in the right frame of mind to watch IV-VI. It's simply jarring, though. The main thing to adjust to was the contrast in pacing between the two "trilogy" runs. Things are much slower to develop in the original IV-VI series, the movies are much less busy all the time. That isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a key difference that became acutely visible right after viewing the newer movies before jumping into the older ones. Fortunately, the pacing only felt problematic in Episode IV, but more on that in a bit.
As for the movie itself, I'll agree it's the necessary starting point to enter into the Star Wars universe for a first time viewer, if only because it's the simplest, most direct movie in the entire series. And I don't really mean that in a good way -- Have you guys thought of the plot in this movie? It's really, really direct, to the point, and mostly underwhelming, despite the awesome setting and universe that Lucas creates. To make a gaming comparison, Lucas is like Bethesda games. He does an amazing job creating the universe for things to play out in, but he isn't great in executing the movies. You basically have your hero who doesn't know he's a hero yet, you have your bad guys (I won't fault using the Empire trope, because isn't this where it began?), and you have the obvious impossible goal of destroying the death star. That's about it...add in the necessary characters and there's your movie. Except, everything other than the dead simple plot works very well. The main thing is that it's all created so that you care about it, that although the plot is simple there are enough other things going on (characters, setting, etc) that it works anyway. Yeah, corny dialogue is cringe worthy, but it's OK. There's obviously enough to keep you eating your popcorn, and the movie stands up even now. (Note that I was watching the remastered version, so I didn't have to ignore seeing the tie fighters dangling by visible cables in the camera shots.
) Kind of a long way to get to it, but although Episode IV has a slower pace and a lot less going on all the time, that isn't a problem, just something that has to be understood for what it is. I've seen criticism (and agree with it) that a lot of newer movies have so much stuff going on all the time that it gets in the way of the movie (See also: Avengers - Age of Ultron...yeah we're going to move the plot along in a bit, but first we need another big fight scene...and GO!). Anyway, you know what's better than Episode IV? That's right,
Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back. My memory from before rewatching these movies was that Episode V was my favorite. It still is. Its scope is wider than Episode IV, which would obviously be the movie to compare it against since this was the first "sequel". The plot wasn't as linear and predictable (I know it's an unfair consideration for a series that's so well known, but...A New Hope was just too direct). You get the feeling of progression with the characters and in general the movie just feels like it's better put together than Episode IV, and honestly than any of the other movies for that matter. I'm guessing it's not a coincidence that Lucas didn't direct this one.
Also, the battle scenes are probably the best in the series. Yeah, Episodes I-III have bigger, more detailed scenes with the advantage of modern CGI, but I like the feeling of the fights better here. Although I will admit the LARPing for sword duels is better in I-III. (And better in V and VI...IV had some pretty stiff saber duels). Anyway, the most significant story to me going on in Episode V is the interplay between Vader and Luke, and it plays out so beautifully. I don't think I'd have trusted Lucas to get it right on film (thank you Kershner!). It's something you can understand. OK, it's a fantasy war in space with lasers and lasery swords, but at the core of it is a human story with real emotion. And that's something you don't get out of Episodes I-III, no matter how much Anakin tried to act angry, the emotion wasn't as real, not believable like in Episode V. I think that's the greatest achievement of the movie, and probably why it stands out as my favorite in the series.
Episode VI - Return of the Jedi leaves me conflicted and unsure of how I feel about it, even though I just finished watching it an hour ago. On the one hand, a lot of things feel right about the movie and are satisfying, especially the continued interplay between Luke and Vader. That is the strength of the movie, because it has meaning beyond their roles in the plot. And the movie starts off well, although let's be honest, I'm not sure why it takes a quarter of the movie to rescue Han and get back to fighting the Empire. Even so, it's an enjoyable enough part of the movie. But after that, what's with Luke going back to Yoda (who he presumably just left not long ago in Episode V to rescue Han) only to find Yoda about to die? I guess it was necessary for the only other living Jedi to die so that Luke could be (nearly) their only hope, but it didn't make much sense to me. He was fine a brief period of time earlier (not much time separates Episode V from Episode VI), so why is he suddenly dying of old age after 900 years? Nitpick aside...OK, no, there's a bigger problem. What's up with the Ewoks??? I remember from previous viewings of this movie that I didn't like the Ewoks, and now I remember why. The whole thing doesn't make sense and the setting is just silly, but unfortunately half of the movie involves the Ewoks, or at least they're part of the setting for what the main characters are involved in. But why??? These guys apparently don't have the technology to resist the Empire, but when a few Rebels show up on the ground now they can win a battle? Where is the Empire's air support? That would have stopped the attack on the base cold, forests or no. Unless I'm forgetting something every big land battle in the series up to this point had air power involved in some way or another, so why would the Empire lack it here, when the consequence of losing the battle are so large? Maybe I'm spending too much time worrying about a small issue, but the whole Ewok plot line really distracts from what should have been a smaller part of the movie, Han and the team's mission to knock out the generator. OK, it's all a trap the Emperor planned, but we still didn't need stone age Ewoks to help with that (and they're pretty adept at using tech for guys without much tech of their own, aren't they?) Also, couldn't Lucas have used a new plot device instead of building another Death Star? In the end, what carries this movie is that you're so invested in the characters, that the characters are really good (not the Ewoks though), and the story itself is interesting, in finding out how Luke rises to the challenge of stopping the Emperor. You might argue he really didn't do it, that Vader ultimately decided things, but Luke was in the end right about Vader, so it wasn't just a deus ex machina kind of solution. It was believable that Vader could do something good, because his motivation made sense. So I'm back to the determination that the strongest parts of the movie were the story and the characters...but the movie itself would have been better with a better setting for the story and characters to exist in. With all that said...the strength of the Luke/Vader story makes me like this movie better than Episode IV.
So, since we like tier lists, here is mine:
1. Episode V
2. Episode VI
3. Episode III (wtf, higher than IV, no way! Yes way, RISE, LORD VADER.)
4. Episode IV
5. Episode II
6. Episode I (unless you skip all Jar Jar scenes, in which case this is #5).
Is there any relationship between my two favorite movies in the series so far being the two Lucas didn't direct?
Although, I'll admit, it's a really close thing deciding between #2 and #3, Episode III could actually be my second favorite on the list, so Lucas didn't botch everything in the execution. OK, I've taken enough of your time, thanks for reading.
(October 27th, 2015, 04:06)AdrienIer Wrote:(October 26th, 2015, 18:41)TheHumanHydra Wrote: @OH: Yes! Episode II is awful. Episode III is better, as it actually has a compelling plot to be ruined by the mediocre acting and poor dialogue. And some of the confrontations are pretty entertaining.
I agree. I watched IV V and VI yesterday (I have a week off) and I'm planning on watching episodes I and III today. II is worthless but III is almost on par with the originals IMO.
Soo...I watched all six movies this week and came away feeling all in all it was pretty awesome. (Should that be behind a spoiler tag? No? OK!) Full disclosure, I hadn't seen most of the movies for quite a long time, so I went in with an open mind. Here we go!
Episode I - The Phantom Menace was still janky, because really, Jar Jar is just not necessary. He should have been a good character, but he didn't totally ruin the movie like I had remembered from when I saw it before. It was more like, "OK, he'll be gone in a minute", and then he was gone and things were good. Maybe the plot isn't great, but the series has to start somewhere, and the Trade Federation thing seems a good enough way to show that a small problem can spiral out of control, given proper guidance by malevolent forces. Still eating popcorn, despite Jar Jar.
Episode II - Attack of the Clones, I really remembered disliking it more before watching it again. I think my distaste for the movie before centered around the wooden portrayal of Anakin, since he was all bratty and pretty flat as a character. Teen rage much, guy? Oh, wait...well, I'm older now, and maybe have a bit more of an understanding that kids his age maybe are that way a little bit. It doesn't totally excuse the flat portrayal, but I at least see what Lucas was trying to do there. As can be said with the Episodes I and III, better directing would have helped (I'm looking at YOU, George Lucas!). In spite of it all, and the real lack of useful plot development, Episode II was fun to watch, taken just as a popcorn movie -- OH LOOK, more light saber action! And less Jar Jar than Episode 1, a fine example of addition by subtraction.
Episode III - Revenge of the Sith, I liked it the first time I saw it at release (unlike I and II) and really enjoyed it this time around. Anakin felt less petulant and more angry watching it this time around, which put him more in place with what he should have been as he transitioned to the Dark Side, and made the movie more enjoyable to boot. As the movie went on and he made the transition toward the end, that was what the first three movies had been building toward, and him going over just felt so good. There's still some of the same problems with corny dialogue as elsewhere in Episodes I and II, but do you guys remember how bad the dialogue is in IV-VI? "I've got a bad feeling about this!" Yeah, it's a problem throughout the whole series, so it's hard to punish Episode III about it much more than any of the others...although "Annie, you're breaking my heart" is a bit too much. Anyway, Anakin becomes Vader, and gloriously so. By far the best of the I-III series. Also, much less Jar Jar screen time in III, probably not a coincidence there.
Which brings us back to the originals. Maybe I'm going to get booed for this next one....
Episode IV - A New Hope, it turns out, is my least favorite of the original three movies! And to be honest, after watching Episodes I-III right before A New Hope, it was almost a dull movie. To be sure, lots has changed in film making in the decades between IV-VI and I-III being released, so I had to re-calibrate my expectations to get in the right frame of mind to watch IV-VI. It's simply jarring, though. The main thing to adjust to was the contrast in pacing between the two "trilogy" runs. Things are much slower to develop in the original IV-VI series, the movies are much less busy all the time. That isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a key difference that became acutely visible right after viewing the newer movies before jumping into the older ones. Fortunately, the pacing only felt problematic in Episode IV, but more on that in a bit.
As for the movie itself, I'll agree it's the necessary starting point to enter into the Star Wars universe for a first time viewer, if only because it's the simplest, most direct movie in the entire series. And I don't really mean that in a good way -- Have you guys thought of the plot in this movie? It's really, really direct, to the point, and mostly underwhelming, despite the awesome setting and universe that Lucas creates. To make a gaming comparison, Lucas is like Bethesda games. He does an amazing job creating the universe for things to play out in, but he isn't great in executing the movies. You basically have your hero who doesn't know he's a hero yet, you have your bad guys (I won't fault using the Empire trope, because isn't this where it began?), and you have the obvious impossible goal of destroying the death star. That's about it...add in the necessary characters and there's your movie. Except, everything other than the dead simple plot works very well. The main thing is that it's all created so that you care about it, that although the plot is simple there are enough other things going on (characters, setting, etc) that it works anyway. Yeah, corny dialogue is cringe worthy, but it's OK. There's obviously enough to keep you eating your popcorn, and the movie stands up even now. (Note that I was watching the remastered version, so I didn't have to ignore seeing the tie fighters dangling by visible cables in the camera shots.
) Kind of a long way to get to it, but although Episode IV has a slower pace and a lot less going on all the time, that isn't a problem, just something that has to be understood for what it is. I've seen criticism (and agree with it) that a lot of newer movies have so much stuff going on all the time that it gets in the way of the movie (See also: Avengers - Age of Ultron...yeah we're going to move the plot along in a bit, but first we need another big fight scene...and GO!). Anyway, you know what's better than Episode IV? That's right, Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back. My memory from before rewatching these movies was that Episode V was my favorite. It still is. Its scope is wider than Episode IV, which would obviously be the movie to compare it against since this was the first "sequel". The plot wasn't as linear and predictable (I know it's an unfair consideration for a series that's so well known, but...A New Hope was just too direct). You get the feeling of progression with the characters and in general the movie just feels like it's better put together than Episode IV, and honestly than any of the other movies for that matter. I'm guessing it's not a coincidence that Lucas didn't direct this one.
Also, the battle scenes are probably the best in the series. Yeah, Episodes I-III have bigger, more detailed scenes with the advantage of modern CGI, but I like the feeling of the fights better here. Although I will admit the LARPing for sword duels is better in I-III. (And better in V and VI...IV had some pretty stiff saber duels). Anyway, the most significant story to me going on in Episode V is the interplay between Vader and Luke, and it plays out so beautifully. I don't think I'd have trusted Lucas to get it right on film (thank you Kershner!). It's something you can understand. OK, it's a fantasy war in space with lasers and lasery swords, but at the core of it is a human story with real emotion. And that's something you don't get out of Episodes I-III, no matter how much Anakin tried to act angry, the emotion wasn't as real, not believable like in Episode V. I think that's the greatest achievement of the movie, and probably why it stands out as my favorite in the series.Episode VI - Return of the Jedi leaves me conflicted and unsure of how I feel about it, even though I just finished watching it an hour ago. On the one hand, a lot of things feel right about the movie and are satisfying, especially the continued interplay between Luke and Vader. That is the strength of the movie, because it has meaning beyond their roles in the plot. And the movie starts off well, although let's be honest, I'm not sure why it takes a quarter of the movie to rescue Han and get back to fighting the Empire. Even so, it's an enjoyable enough part of the movie. But after that, what's with Luke going back to Yoda (who he presumably just left not long ago in Episode V to rescue Han) only to find Yoda about to die? I guess it was necessary for the only other living Jedi to die so that Luke could be (nearly) their only hope, but it didn't make much sense to me. He was fine a brief period of time earlier (not much time separates Episode V from Episode VI), so why is he suddenly dying of old age after 900 years? Nitpick aside...OK, no, there's a bigger problem. What's up with the Ewoks??? I remember from previous viewings of this movie that I didn't like the Ewoks, and now I remember why. The whole thing doesn't make sense and the setting is just silly, but unfortunately half of the movie involves the Ewoks, or at least they're part of the setting for what the main characters are involved in. But why??? These guys apparently don't have the technology to resist the Empire, but when a few Rebels show up on the ground now they can win a battle? Where is the Empire's air support? That would have stopped the attack on the base cold, forests or no. Unless I'm forgetting something every big land battle in the series up to this point had air power involved in some way or another, so why would the Empire lack it here, when the consequence of losing the battle are so large? Maybe I'm spending too much time worrying about a small issue, but the whole Ewok plot line really distracts from what should have been a smaller part of the movie, Han and the team's mission to knock out the generator. OK, it's all a trap the Emperor planned, but we still didn't need stone age Ewoks to help with that (and they're pretty adept at using tech for guys without much tech of their own, aren't they?) Also, couldn't Lucas have used a new plot device instead of building another Death Star? In the end, what carries this movie is that you're so invested in the characters, that the characters are really good (not the Ewoks though), and the story itself is interesting, in finding out how Luke rises to the challenge of stopping the Emperor. You might argue he really didn't do it, that Vader ultimately decided things, but Luke was in the end right about Vader, so it wasn't just a deus ex machina kind of solution. It was believable that Vader could do something good, because his motivation made sense. So I'm back to the determination that the strongest parts of the movie were the story and the characters...but the movie itself would have been better with a better setting for the story and characters to exist in. With all that said...the strength of the Luke/Vader story makes me like this movie better than Episode IV.
So, since we like tier lists, here is mine:
1. Episode V
2. Episode VI
3. Episode III (wtf, higher than IV, no way! Yes way, RISE, LORD VADER.)
4. Episode IV
5. Episode II
6. Episode I (unless you skip all Jar Jar scenes, in which case this is #5).
Is there any relationship between my two favorite movies in the series so far being the two Lucas didn't direct?
Although, I'll admit, it's a really close thing deciding between #2 and #3, Episode III could actually be my second favorite on the list, so Lucas didn't botch everything in the execution. OK, I've taken enough of your time, thanks for reading.
Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon