FFH PBEM3?

[Thoth]

Now, all this argument will look very silly in the end if nobody ends up summoning

True.

[Nyktorion]

Well, that's a good point. I'm not sure which direction it points in, though I would tend to think that's an extra reason to want them both human controlled, since even if they want to ally they'll have trouble doing so, but adding AI control creates a bit of a power vacuum.

Of course, the shape the mother civ is left in by the summoner before switching also determines how whether this is a factor is, and how big it is.

Well, yes - but people breaking diplomatic deals around here are few and far between, mostly for the sake of keeping their reputations for the next game. I figure the odds of a human breaking a diplo deal aren't too much different than the odds of AI Hyborem declaring war on you even though you summoned him and are also Ashen Veil.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. So there is indeed no formal enforcement of such deals here, but you do take a big diplo hit that lasts beyond the current game if you decide to do this. And that's why I have not seen such a betrayal in the games I have read here yet.

Yes, I do agree that Basium is usually a net plus, and expect that to be the case here - but then almost any move you can make is a net plus. The main question is whether he's valuable enough to be unbalancing if human controlled. I think, but am not certain, that Basium and Hyborem will tend to be weaker than a SP game because there will be fewer ongoing wars; most MP wars are short and decisive, so there's be fewer casualties to become manes/angels. Human control would counterbalance that, to an unknown degree. But honestly, I can't think of any way to really know that answer before it's tried.

As for diplo, I figure the diplo hit will end up being related to what the human does anyway. If AI Basium declares, but his ally sends no forces, I can't see that being much of a diplo hit (if I'm the one declared on), while if his ally comes along, I can't see that being an excuse. And if Basium is human as well, then it's no excuse whatsoever :-)

Irgy's point about Basium being more valuable as a human is definitely true in my book, I just don't think he's so valuable as to be unbalancing. Or at least I'm willing to take that risk. Mostly because I think there's so much else in the game that's unbalancing that it's just one more item, but I expect a new human to make the game more fun. I don't think anyone around here has played with a human Basium or Hyborem and all human opponents before. In fact, I think that's probably most of my motivation - although I think it wouldn't be too unbalancing, I'm not sure, but I'd like to find out.

Very good point about the fewer manes and angels, I had not thought about that yet. Whether or not this balances out with the "human bonus", I can believe well that this at least ensures that not too much imbalance is created.

About the diplo hit: well, I imagine you can still argue that you have to defend your poor ally, in whom you had invested so many hammers and a whole city, from getting killed by his war...
However, I just noted something else there: as there should be no "refuses to talk" period at all among humans, so the option of proposing peace the turn after Basium's declaration will make it hard to defend joining Basium's war.

Hmm, the longer I think about writing this post, the more my mood is swinging back towards favoring human Basium/Hyborem again.

[Irgy]

I'm happy with a human Hyboream, I think it's a balance change (compared to AI) but a relatively minor and admittedly interesting one. And certainly a much smaller balance change than "compact enforced". So I'm happy to accept that we're settled on compact unenforced, and Hyboream being human (assuming it's technically feasable of course).

I think a human Basium though is a huge, game breaking change, so I'm going to keep arguing about it for the moment, despite being in the minority. I'll go with the vote, but I'd still like to make my case.

I don't see any particular reason we can't have human Hyboream and AI Basium, so I'm just putting that option out there in case some people are keen on human Hyboream but less fussed about Basium.

Why is everyone so against having an AI? I agree that starting a game with a mix of AIs and humans is awkward. AI civs create soft targets for people, and the land people gain gives them a big advantage. Having human controlled civs replaced by AIs is similarly undesirable. However, I think most of the arguments for why it's bad to have AIs at the start or replacing human players don't apply to Basium and Hyboream. I think people are naturally against AI B&H because they're against AI civs, and assume that the reasons for one carry through to the other. I think rather than being like a normal AI civ, an AI Hyboream is much more like a second barbarian civ (where running AV is like having the "barbarian" trait), and an AI Basium is much more like creating a large number of units with the "insane" promotion. Taking the AI out of Basium is like taking the insane promotion away from lunatics (but on a much larger scale).

I don't think human Basium is the way it was intended. I've already made my point about the balance, I'm not going to go into more detail with that. I'm just going to say that if a human summoned Basium was supposed to be under human control, then it would make just as much sense for it to work that way in single player. I think it doesn't work that way in single player because it would be too good and everyone would do it, and multiplayer is no different in that regard.

One final point, having two human players for Basium and the summoning civ is not really any different to having the same player control both. Because of the forced permanent alliance, complete co-operation should be basically guaranteed. So all having a second player does is introduce a slight out of game communications handicap and a small amount of inefficiency, which will be counteracted by the benefits of having two minds on the job. It's not much different to having two people sharing a single civ.

Sorry for all the text, but at least I've made my point, people can agree or disagree and we can move on.


On other topics;

As far as a human Hyboream breaking agreements, sure, he can, but it's no different to any non-game-enforced agreement that people make. Which is to say that you can do it, but people won't trust you in the future. As evil as his in-game persona may be, being Hyboream doesn't really change anything there.

I like the idea of pre-summoning communication with Hyboream, since we seem to have a prepared player for him in Sciz. It kind of breaks the no out of game contact before in-game contact rule though. Maybe we could define contact with an unsummoned Hyboream as running (or just having?) the Ashen Veil, and presumably having the AV tech too (Corruption of Spirit)? Hyboream isn't automatically in contact with people when he appears, and technically people shouldn't even automatically be told that he's even been summoned when he has, but I expect it will be hard to keep it a secret.

I can confirm that the worldspell For the Horde will indeed convert Sons of the Inferno, as I've had it happen myself. It saved my bacon in fact in a single player game I was playing. I would argue that both means of acquiring SoI are powerful, but not unintended, and that if anything it's removing Acheron that's creating an imbalance, by preventing those tactics. I'm not all that fussed about it though.

[Mr. Yellow]

I can confirm that the worldspell For the Horde will indeed convert Sons of the Inferno, as I've had it happen myself. It saved my bacon in fact in a single player game I was playing. I would argue that both means of acquiring SoI are powerful, but not unintended, and that if anything it's removing Acheron that's creating an imbalance, by preventing those tactics. I'm not all that fussed about it though.

Really? Didn't they get the loyalty promotion to counteract that spell?

[Irgy]

Ugh, crossposted with Mardoc. I guess that's what I get for writing so much and taking so long to do it. It sounds like we're almost agreed really, it's just a question of degree - you think it won't be disbalancing and I think it will.

Really? Didn't they get the loyalty promotion to counteract that spell?

Well, it definately happened to me, and I only downloaded the mod in the last few months so I shouldn't be out of date. I don't think loyalty affects that worldspell at all. I think it was added to make dominating and the "command" line of promotions more difficult.

[Mardoc]

I'm happy with a human Hyboream, I think it's a balance change (compared to AI) but a relatively minor and admittedly interesting one. And certainly a much smaller balance change than "compact enforced". So I'm happy to accept that we're settled on compact unenforced, and Hyboream being human (assuming it's technically feasable of course).

I don't see any particular reason we can't have human Hyboream and AI Basium, so I'm just putting that option out there in case some people are keen on human Hyboream but less fussed about Basium.

Well, I'll admit, that's pretty much the way I was thinking. I definitely want a human Hyborem, but human Basium is less interesting, because there's not really meaningful diplomacy there, nor are there as many options.

AI civs create soft targets for people, and the land people gain gives them a big advantage. Having human controlled civs replaced by AIs is similarly undesirable.

I hadn't thought along these lines, but it makes sense; if anything, Hyborem and Basium will be much less of a problem since they appear after the land is mostly claimed, and it's the land that makes the biggest difference in a war against an AI.

Taking the AI out of Basium is like taking the insane promotion away from lunatics (but on a much larger scale).

And I agree with this analogy, as well, on reflection. Part of why lunatics/Basium have the strength they do is that you won't be in control.

After reading your arguments, I'm mostly in favor of forcing Basium to be AI; there's still the corner case of what if someone wants to switch to him (since that would introduce the problems of AI takeover of a major civ), but it seems fair to disallow that switch as well. So Sciz could only come into the game if Hyborem is summoned, either as Hyborem or as the summoner.

I still don't think it would be as unbalancing as you do, but the convincing argument for me is that it would add less fun than Hyborem, in exchange for a arguably greater damage to the balance of the game. Plus, if I'm wrong about the balance, I think I'm more likely wrong about Basium than about Hyborem.

I like the idea of pre-summoning communication with Hyboream, since we seem to have a prepared player for him in Sciz. It kind of breaks the no out of game contact before in-game contact rule though. Maybe we could define contact with an unsummoned Hyboream as running (or just having?) the Ashen Veil, and presumably having the AV tech too (Corruption of Spirit)? Hyboream isn't automatically in contact with people when he appears, and technically people shouldn't even automatically be told that he's even been summoned when he has, but I expect it will be hard to keep it a secret.

I would personally go with must have Corruption of Spirit and AV somewhere in your lands, for contact with Sciz while he's still on the Infernal Plane. Once he's been summoned, back to normal in-game contact required, since the gates to the Infernal Plane no longer connect to him

Not much we can do about people knowing he's arrived when we'll likely have to do a good bit of out-of-game stuff to insert him into the turn order.

But, now I think I've probably talked too much today, I'll wait for input from the rest of you.

[WarriorKnight]

I agree that having two humans controlling Basium and the summoner is too powerful. However, I think it would be ok if one of the two were controlled by the AI (whichever one is human to be decided by the summoner). The summoner usually remains the techer while Basium is the hammer. If you've started over as the angels and don't protect your starting civ, your going to have a rough time teching to all your other UU's (which are all tier 4 units, the majority of which aren't easy to get to).

However, I don't really have a strong opinion either way, so I'll be happy with anything if someone can prove me wrong.

I'm against pre-summon communication with Hyborem though. While it certainly gives the advantage to Ashen Veil civs, Hyborem rarely full contact with everyone when he gets summoned, including with his summoner. If you do summon him without contact while talking to him before, it probably wouldn't work out well. Perhaps encourage him with a restriction to like anyone with Ashen Veil (don't declare, try and be friends etc.) and hate anyone without it?

[Mr. Yellow]

Hmm, forgot that Basium is permanently allied to the summoner permanently till he is killed or wins. A human player in that case wouldn't be so interresting since his hands are tied to the summoner. I'm for an AI to him in that case.

Pretty neutral regarding communicating with Hyboerm before the summon, though the player in control shouldn't be restricted. The infernals do whatever they like and doesn't really care one bit about the summoner.


Also, what chat channels do the RB members normally use, if any?

[WarriorKnight]

Also, what chat channels do the RB members normally use, if any?

For chats about games and stuff, we usually use Gmail chat. I noticed that a few people had non gmail e-mail accounts and that's fine, but I'm not sure if we can chat with you in that case.

This discussion should probably go in the tech thread though.

[Mardoc]

So - we might need to start thinking about what to do for a map if we can't attract a mapmaker. We seem to have agreed on just about everything settings wise, although some of that might have to go by the wayside (like a quest island) if we have to make the map automatically.

Sounds like Irgy's convinced a majority that Basium should be AI and Hyborem human if possible, which was our last area of contention.

My first thought on making our own map would be to use Erebus Continents and go with the map it makes us - I'd rather have an interesting map to a balanced one if we can't get someone to make us one that's both. That would make it much more difficult to handle Yggdrasil, Dragon Bones, Remnants, and Acheron, so presumably we'd have to turn Acheron off and take a gamble on the Big Three. Plus, Continents tends to stick civs into their preferred habitats; it's probably more balanced for Lanun to be on the ocean and Elves in the trees than both on the ocean.

A second possibility would be to use SevenSpirit's Hall of Mirrors or one of the standard mirror maps, if people prefer balance to variety. Presumably if we use one of those, even Yggdrasil in the BFC wouldn't be a problem because everyone would have their own Ygg.

Neither's the best option, but if we can't get a mapmaking volunteer, I still want to play. How long do we wait before we go this route? Anyone want to do some recruiting for mapmakers?