[Spoilers] Louis XIV of Babylon

[Sciz]

i'm a bit forgetful of vanilla BtS stuff since i mostly play FFH2 nowadyas, but you only need maths for hanging gardens right?

what city is gonna build it?

[Cyneheard]

The Aqueduct requires Masonry.

[SleepingMoogle]

*Ahem*

REM State: Settler -> Aquaduct (whip with overflow) -> Hanging Gardens (this will probably consume most if not all forests the city has)

The rule dispute in the tech thread (and to some extent the united nations thread) was good for me in the sense that it allowed me to finish the Crusader Kings turnset for the succession game we're reporting on in the Civ general forum. Now that I'm done with that, I can pick up the pace for RBP4 again.

Anyway, masonry is indeed needed to construct an Aqueduct. Mathematics was finished this turn, so we are now one tech removed from starting the project. I'm feeling fairly good about it again, as we're now at 5 cities and should have at least 3 more before finishing the Gardens.

An overview of turn 77:

Masonry will take 4 turns to complete at the current pace, which actuall matches quite nicely with the Settler that REM State is working on right now. All the signs around the city make it rather hard to make out details, but four of the city's seven forests have been pre-chopped and roaded in preparation for the Gardens, and number 5 is halfway there.

The provisional plan for now:

REM state will finish it settler at the same time Masonry research finishes, and will start building an Aqueduct right away. I'll let the city grow to size 6 (1 unhappiness), and then triple-whip it to completion with as much overflow into the Gardens as possible. That means I need to mirco the city to get as close to 39/100 hammers as possible without actually reaching 40.

After this, the Workers will start converting the pre-chopped forests into hammers towards completing the Wonder. I hope that by the time this is done, all 7 forests are pre-chopped (I'll use them all to make sure I actually get the wonder). There are currently two Workers at the city, but I can bring over a third currently improving a tile at Insomnia to help out.

Right now we're at 5 cities, but there should be at least 3 others in the near future:

City 6, from the Settler that REM State is currently working on.
City 7, from the Settler that Insomnia will start next turn (aided by a chop)
City 8, from the Settler that NAP will work on next turn (aided by a chop)

I might keep Insomnia on Settlers afterwards to settle the location on the west coast (it will take minimal effort to set up and connect the site).

8 Cities isn't 10, but I don't want to delay the gardens any longer than this. Mackoti expressed interest in them already, I still haven't met luddite so I'm not sure what he's up to, and it may be a tempting target for non-Ind civs as well. Word around the grapevine is that Plako's graphs are frightening, so he may give it a shot (although it looks like he's founded Judaism, which may mean he's not researched Maths yet). Still, I'd hate to lose out on them now after all the prep work.

[SleepingMoogle]

Things are never quite that easy aren't they?

Hi SleepingMoogle,

No worries, happy to help you with meeting new nations, especially considering all the help you've given us. Glad to be able to return the favour.

Things are indeed progressing peacefully for us for the moment... although the same can't be said for our neighbours! As you've probably noticed, last turn Mackoti attacked Luddite through a double move - and while that's now been reloaded, I'm guessing it's pretty likely things will erupt there again in short order. Apparently Mackoti broke a non-aggression pact at the same time as trying to do the double move, which is a bit of a low blow. You might want to be careful of him in the future... we certainly will be. At least the new tensions between Mackoti and Luddite are good news for both of us, since it pretty much confirms that both of our neighbours won't be bothering either of us for a while.

By the way, I recall that you mentioned a vague interest in the Hanging Gardens a while ago. Is that still the case, or have you changed your mind? I thought this'd be a good time to drop you a line just in case you still have any plans regarding it. You'll probably be aware that Mackoti just finished the Pyramids this turn, and you might recall that earlier we expressed an interest in that wonder. However, now that the Pyramids have been taken, we'll obviously have to divert our efforts elsewhere. We've decided to switch our focus to the Hanging Gardens, as we've already got all the necessary pieces in place for a very quick build there, plus we have a decent enough number of cities to get a reasonable benefit from the wonder.

We were fortunate that we had not finished any chops prior to this turn, so we have a huge amount of hammers available that are ready to be diverted to the Hanging Gardens in an instant. We can thus build the wonder in extremely short order (a mere couple of turns from now) if we want to. Furthermore, from our analysis of Civstats and the demographics, we're confident that no-one could beat us to our earliest possible build time. (You seem to be our closest possible competitor - and even assuming Maths was the tech you finished last turn, we'd still get the wonder faster than you.)

Anyway, as you made mention of the Hanging Gardens a while ago, I just thought I'd let you know about this in case you were still thinking about building the wonder. I wouldn't want you to end up wasting any forest chops and/or whips on a wonder you didn't realise we were building, when you could better spend them elsewhere.

There's also one other thing - we have six cities at the moment, but we'd like to take a few extra turns to build a couple more cities before completing the Hanging Gardens. However, this would require knowing that we wouldn't risk losing the wonder to our closest potential competitor. Would you be willing to agree not to compete with us for the Hanging Gardens, in return for some other benefit? Perhaps a lack of competition from us on some other wonder, or maybe a free resource trade once we have trade routes? I'm sure we could figure something out. In this scenario we'd obviously have to trust your word that you wouldn't try to build the Hanging Gardens anyway with the knowledge that we were delaying it, but I'm confident that you wouldn't do such a thing if you agreed not to.

So, what do you say? If you'd rather not make any agreement and instead want to race us for the Hanging Gardens, we can do that... but I'm very confident that our nation will win such a race. Racing would however be detrimental to both of us, since we'd have a smaller number of cities (6) at the time the wonder was built, and you'd lose a bunch of hammers that could have been put to a more useful purpose.

On the other hand, you could agree to help us out by not building the wonder while we delay it a few turns to get a couple more cities. In return, you'd save yourself a lot of lost hammers, as well as getting the additional benefit of a generous deal from us in return for your help. That way, we both win - you can divert your hammers to more useful projects while potentially getting a free resource or uncontested wonder from us later, and we can get a couple more cities out before finishing the Hanging Gardens. Seems like a great outcome for both of us!

Anyway, let us know what you think. Sorry about the length of this message, I tend to ramble on a bit I guess.

Hope to hear back from you about this potential deal soon.

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin

So Lord Parkin turns out to be a backstabbing liar (big surprise there) who thinks he can bully me out of the Gardens? He'll be in for a disappointment there.

I checked some screenshots, and my best guess is that he hasn't researched Maths researched yet (though he's likely to be doing so right now). I'm not sure whether or not he has Masonry already (he may have gotten this if he was actually going for the Pyramids), but if this was in any way planned I doubt he'd research it before Mathematics. Either way, let's assume that we'll start on that Aqueduct before he does, or at least not be far behind.

Will he triple whip the Aqueduct? He might if he's intending to build the Gardens in his capital (currently size 7, damn you Charismatic happiness). It's easy enough to keep an eye on that since the city is in the top 5 city screen due to Stonehenge.

Insomnia started with 7 forests, and by all accounts the starting positions were mirrored for everyone. It's no big stretch to assume that Lord Parkin will have used some forests to chop out Settlers, structures, even Stonehenge if he went for early BW. So I'll probably have more forests to chop down. Doubly so if I chop down forests outside of REM State's BFC as well (which I just might).

So yes, I'm confident enough to call his bluff. And I be damned if I let this guy walk over me without a fight. So I guess that makes it a race, since I doubt he'll back down either. And even if he will, I don't trust him any longer.

LordParkin,

Let us dispense with pleasantries for a moment and get right down to the heart of the matter.

Up until your last message, you have made no mention of the Hanging Gardens. In fact, we are the only ones who brought it up, and we did so in our very first message. I will include the relevant lines below in case you have forgotten:

You:

Right now we don't have any wonders planned for the immediate future, but we've been considering going for either the Pyramids or Great Library sometime in mid-term future.

Us:

Anyway, we are considering the Hanging Gardens right now (being Babylon and all), so it doesn't look like we'll be competing for wonders anytime soon.

This was then met by an affirmative response from you.

Now, it is unfortunate that you lost out on the Pyramids, but that is not something we had any involvement in. We noted that it was not a wonder we intended to build, and we held true to our word. It is disappointing to see you make an attempt for the Hanging Gardens rather than the Great Library (which you claimed to be interested in chasing) because it comes across as

1) Deliberate intent to deceive us, which calls into question the honesty of your previous communications,
2) A childish reaction to not getting what you wanted, and
3) The misconception that you can dictate how the Tribes of Somnus spend their resources.

We are not about to change our plans, and are confident of landing the Gardens before you will, regardless of how confident you try to make yourself sound. It is you who should worry about wasting hammers, and should reconsider going for the Library instead. It might even have the added benefit of regaining our trust.

-SleepingMoogle
Patriarch of the first Tribe of Somnus

[SleepingMoogle]

Looks like I got his attention.

Hi SleepingMoogle,

With all due respect, I'm rather confused and really don't quite understand your reaction here. Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding somewhere.

Neither of us have mentioned wonders since our initial diplomacy, where we expressed our potential future intentions. Our understanding was that this was simply both of us expressing our interests at the time - we both talked about "considering" wonders, neither of us said anything like "we're definitely building this, please do not build this". Nor did either of us ever agree to anything along the lines of "we will never under any circumstances build these wonders". I'm not trying to be dishonest (as you seem to imply), I'm just stating the facts. You never said the Hanging Gardens were rightfully yours just like I never said the Pyramids were rightfully mine... and yet you now act like that was the case all along. I'm a bit perplexed, to be honest.

Neither of us had made an outright claim to the wonders we'd mentioned, so I understood that until we talked further about wonders, there was no reason why you couldn't build the Pyramids or Great Library or why we couldn't build the Hanging Gardens. However, we did have what I understood as an agreement of common courtesy, in that if either of us wanted to build a wonder the other had mentioned, it would be doing the right thing to let them know. I thought I was acting honourably by extending you that courtesy at the earliest opportunity, and yet you seem to treat me as if I'd slapped you across the face. You hadn't made an agreement with us that the Hanging Gardens were yours, so theoretically I could have gone ahead and built them under the radar without ever mentioning anything to you. However, THAT would have been disrespectful. I didn't want to do that.

Instead, I let you know immediately about my plans regarding the Hanging Gardens. The pieces were already in place because Maths was necessary for the +50% chops into any wonder we built regardless. The Pyramids had always been the first priority, but when Mackoti took them the plan had to change. I don't see how immediate notification to you that we were confirming a wonder on our build queue could in any way be interpreted as dishonest. Perhaps your interpretation of our earlier discussion about wonders was that there was some agreement where you had an absolute rightful claim to the Hanging Gardens, but that is not at all what happened. I repeat - we never had such an agreement, neither of us had any rightful claims to wonders we'd talked about considering.

You made mention of the Great Library - the reason for us no longer considering that wonder is fairly simple. We've recently been informed by Luddite that he intends to use a Forge-gained Great Engineer to get the Library, which would arrive around turn 90. There's absolutely no way we can possibly compete with that, so I'm sure you understand why we can no longer consider this wonder a possibility.

Mackoti getting the Pyramids had nothing to do with either of us, of course. That isn't the point. The point is that it's quite unfair to interpret a single short discussion of "considering" wonders several weeks back as an explicit agreement of "you may NEVER EVER build this no matter what, it's rightfully ours". We never made such an agreement, and it's not fair to pretend that we did. Effectively saying "that's been ours all along and you are a backstabbing bastard" seems rather over the top.

To respond directly to your concerns:

1. We have always been honest and upfront in our communications with you, and I don't understand how you can think we're trying to deceive you. We have in fact done the exact opposite by informing you immediately of our intention to work on this wonder, with no beating around the bush.

2. Name calling is rather a disappointing overreaction. You seem to imply that I am somehow taking something that is irrevertably and rightfully yours out of spite. None of this is true. My decision is a calm and rational reaction to the fact that I can no longer work on one wonder. Switching focus to another wonder that we don't have an agreement to avoid is logical, and not at all intended to be a stab at you. Indeed, until now you'd never said you felt so strongly about the Hanging Gardens, so how were we to know?

3. It's a complete misinterpretation to think that we're somehow trying to "tell you what to do". We're simply stating the facts (that we are confident we cannot be beaten to the Hanging Gardens if we race for it), and based on those facts are trying to work out an optimal outcome for both of us. Please understand that we are truly trying to reach a mutually beneficial outcome for both of us. However, your hot-headed reaction leaves you liable to make a major wasteful mistake and turn down huge benefits you could otherwise get.

I guess there's one other possibility for why you're acting this way, which may be to try to "scare us off" going for the wonder. If so, it seems a rather unfair tactic to immediately become overtly hostile and try to claim that we broke some agreement we never made. More can be achieved with cool heads than harsh biting anger, after all.

With that out of the way, I do hope we can discuss things more civilly from now on.

The facts:
* The Pyramids are gone
* The Great Library cannot be contested due to Luddite's Great Engineer.
* You seem to understand that our earlier discussion entitles you to complete undisputed rights surrounding the Hanging Gardens in the present day. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
* I understand that our earlier discussion meant exactly what it said; we were considering options for future wonders, not staking absolute claims.
* I immediately notified you about the Hanging Gardens as soon as I settled on building it, out of courtesy.
* You somehow interpreted this courtesy as a brutal backstab, when this was never close to the truth.
* You state you are confident that you can land the Gardens first; however...
* I honestly don't see any way you can beat us in a race to the Gardens, even if you already have both Maths and Masonry. (And I don't think you do.)
* One of us will waste a lot of hammers if we are hot-headed and don't think this through rationally; I'm pretty certain it'll be you if that eventuates.
* Even though I'm sure we can beat you in a race regardless, I've offered generous one-way deals that only benefit you in return for your cooperation.
* You've made no such counter-offers, instead only displaying hostility and anger to the mere idea of doing anything we might suggest - even though it would be greatly beneficial for you to work something out with us.
* You claim that I have broken my word; I vehemently oppose this as there was never any agreement to break, and I have always been honest in my dealings with you (and every other nation).

Now, I'm open to level-headed suggestions about how we can work this out. But please bear in mind that further anger and insults will get us nowhere. It's also worth bearing in mind that attempting a failed rush at a wonder when you have very few cities is rather damaging, and not particularly helpful even if you succeed.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin

Reading back on the message, it might have been a tad on the harsh side, but I needed to run some errands when he sent the previous message and had little time to formulate a response. Sending one without all the polish seems to have gotten the desired effect though. And I was right in that he won't back down either.

Perhaps most of what he says is true, but reading between the lines are a lot of hints that he's worried about a possible race despite still noting he thinks he can beat us. I'll have to think a bit on a response, but I'm not stepping down either. And I'm still confident of my chances too since LP's score doesn't suggest he gained Maths this turn either.

(Also, LP's indication about Luddite rushing the Glib means we can't/shouldn't go for that wonder ourselves).

Unfortunately now that it's certain we're in a race, I'll have to go with the fastest scenario I've come up with. That means the Gardens will be finished on T84 (ie, the last hammers are invested on T83). I wish I had another turn or two, but I'm not going to chance that.

In other news, Mackoti and Ioan finished the Pyramids without Slavery (they revolted into it this turn) and, as far as I can tell, without Mathematics.

I'm not quite sure whether it was the right call (it's over 300 hammers they could have spent elsewhere), but it's still an impressive achievement, especially considering they spent hammers on Stonehenge as well. And they tried going to war with Luddite too.. did they chop every single forest in sight or something?

[SleepingMoogle]

And as another add-on, finishing the Pyramids means Mackoti and Ioan will probably have a spare Great Engineer before we do. I was thinking about him for the Mausoleum, but that may not be possible anymore.

[Ellimist]

So Lord Parkin turns out to be a backstabbing liar (big surprise there) who thinks he can bully me out of the Gardens? He'll be in for a disappointment there.

<snip>

So yes, I'm confident enough to call his bluff. And I be damned if I let this guy walk over me without a fight. So I guess that makes it a race, since I doubt he'll back down either. And even if he will, I don't trust him any longer.

Very good.

[SleepingMoogle]

So here's what I sent back:

Lord Parkin,

If the previous message was harsh, it was because I was preparing to leave when I noticed the message and had very little time to compose a response. The general tone of the message matched my initial reaction though, and I am still not at all amused. While I will concede that we did not have an ironclad contract about wonders, we both implied what we wanted and you did not object when I mentioned interest in the Gardens. Nor did you mention your possible interest up until now when you easily could have. If you had I'm certain our communications would be a lot more friendly than they are now.

Anyway, if you feel that you can ignore informal agreements just like that, then how am I to trust you with anything unless it is written down, signed in blood, and legally binding? If we were to verbally agree not to chase each other's girl for the prom, would you break that agreement simply because it wasn't written down when it turns out your first choice already picked another date? Friends would not do that to each other. And yet that is exactly what you just did.

You were beaten to the Pyramids because you delayed it too much. Mackoti and Ioan were able to finish them without access to Slavery, and most likely without Mathematics, apparently before you even started. And that was your mistake, not ours. In your next message to us, you basically state that since you were beaten to it, you're instead going to take the wonder we stated our interest in for yourself. In return, you offer compensation that is all but worthless. You can be glib and dress it up all you want, but the wall of text, apologetic words and smileys don't disguise that fact.

As stated before, we are not backing down. And since you brought it up, we don't feel we need to offer you any more compensation than what we already gave you: our word not to go for the Great Library or the Pyramids, as agreed during our initial exhange of messages. Since this is similar to what you offered yourself, we are confident you'll find this agreeable.

If you still decide to turn it into a race, then that's your decision. Don't blame us for the lost hammers though.


Pleasant dreams,
-SleepingMoogle
Patriarch of the first tribe of Somnus

[Sciz]

I liked your first message to Parkin! I'm usually harsh in my diplo too because I don't care about sugarcoating my messages, it just makes them sound false to me.

I hope you can get the hanging gardens!

[scooter]

I'll add to the chorus and say I loved your first "harsh" message to LP.