Return of the Horde: Temujin of Rome

[WarriorKnight]

What about bureau? I plan to switch out of that in the not too distant future which will affect the yield. However, since you've gone into much more detail then I usually go into over 1 tile, I'll concede anyway.

Let's just say that Kararomum is a production city, working non-river cottages is something I would generally want to avoid, especially since I plan to switch out of bureau at some point.

[SevenSpirits]

What about bureau? I plan to switch out of that in the not too distant future which will affect the yield. However, since you've gone into much more detail then I usually go into over 1 tile, I'll concede anyway.

Let's just say that Kararomum is a production city, working non-river cottages is something I would generally want to avoid, especially since I plan to switch out of bureau at some point.

Wanting to work a workshop instead in the not-too-distant future is a good reason to not grow the cottage now. I was just pondering about your preference to work coast over non-river cottages, since I'd never heard that opinion before.

[Shoot the Moon]

Yeah, a 6 commerce investment is pretty minimal. I think the workshop may be a decent enough reason, but fear of losing 6 commerce perhaps not so much on a straight comparison of coast vs. cottage.

[oledavy]

I really don't like non-river cottages as on normal speed they are strictly worse than coast for the first 45 turns or so (so for this game, 30 turns?) especially when it's not in a commerce city. I will probably change that cottage into a workshop as I have enough food to spare to do that.

On quick, the first 25 turns.

6 @ 1 + 13 @ 2 + 6 more as a village to make up the deficit.

True, but commerce now is worth more than the same amount of commerce later, so a couple more turns are needed to make up for that (although I have no idea how many).

Still, it takes too long just to catch up to coast in tile yield which is why I'm changing it to a workshop.

Right, that was just the "strictly" calculation.

Though on the other hand, it's a really tiny initial investment if you already have the cottage built, just $6 over 6 turns.

How much return on investment do you expect? Working a cottage over coast provides return equivalent to 4.5% interest per turn if towns and printing press didn't exist - obviously better than that because they do exist.

Edit: Bad calculation, it actually gives better than a 5% return.
$6 over 6 turns at 5% interest rate is about equivalent to a $5.3 investment on turn one. After 19 turns that loss has compounded to 13.4 - but after that point you're making $1/turn which is better than 5%. (At 5%, $1/turn = $14 up front.)

What about bureau? I plan to switch out of that in the not too distant future which will affect the yield. However, since you've gone into much more detail then I usually go into over 1 tile, I'll concede anyway.

Let's just say that Kararomum is a production city, working non-river cottages is something I would generally want to avoid, especially since I plan to switch out of bureau at some point.

Wanting to work a workshop instead in the not-too-distant future is a good reason to not grow the cottage now. I was just pondering about your preference to work coast over non-river cottages, since I'd never heard that opinion before.

Yeah, a 6 commerce investment is pretty minimal. I think the workshop may be a decent enough reason, but fear of losing 6 commerce perhaps not so much on a straight comparison of coast vs. cottage.

You might be a civ4 micro fiend if.....

FWIW, I generally favor cottages over workshops for a bureaucracy capital, simply because the commerce modifier is so powerful and a grassland workshop is only a 1/2/0 tile at this point. However, it's ultimately not going to make or break our game one way or another.

Now, on to commenting on the actual report...

[WarriorKnight]

Wanting to work a workshop instead in the not-too-distant future is a good reason to not grow the cottage now. I was just pondering about your preference to work coast over non-river cottages, since I'd never heard that opinion before.

If anyone's interested, I learnt that opinion from here, having found the link here. I may not have interpreted it correctly, however at this point I'm going to have to agree with this:

However, it's ultimately not going to make or break our game one way or another.

[oledavy]

Alrighty, thanks for the big update.

Some random questions and observations:

- How big do you plan on growing Kararomum?
- Boating Parrrrrrley may be in order whenever we get astronomy.
- Imp settlers to support my expansion into the north would be really nice. Do you have a good hammer site you can devote to their production? This would also call for that road in the center area between us to be completed sooner rather than later.
- Kararorum VII has a pretty nice food bonus - perhaps whip a market/grocer into there and run merchants?
- Where are you planning on building Wall Street?

Me and Shoot were talking in game earlier, remarking how we both really liked how you were able to limit Sunrise's expansion eastward. If picking Rome was good for nothing else, it probably deterred Sunrise from settling aggressively towards you, paving the way for you to secure more than your fair share of the land between you two.

Rushing elo hell still would have been a lot of fun though

While another craptastic location, furs are +2 happy for me (since I can build markets) and both Shoot and dave surely wouldn't mind another happy resource (if they ask nicely )

[Shoot the Moon]

Ok, there's no way I can top that...

[WarriorKnight]

Alrighty, thanks for the big update.

np.

- How big do you plan on growing Kararomum?

Short answer: As large as I can.

Long answer: Depends really, if I need to work mines for some emergency reason, then I can't grow while doing that. Obviously if happy cap isn't high enough, then I'll have to halt for a bit, although that can be fixed quite easily. Being in bureau though, I see no reason not to try and grow as much as possible.

- Boating Parrrrrrley may be in order whenever we get astronomy.

Might be a bit late then. I'm tempted to build 2 galleys and 4 Knights to see if I can boat him sometime in the near future but I have no idea what his defenses are like (1 pike and a castle would own that). I can't settle floodplain in it's current location without doing something about Parley, so it's a bit of a conundrum.

- Imp settlers to support my expansion into the north would be really nice. Do you have a good hammer site you can devote to their production? This would also call for that road in the center area between us to be completed sooner rather than later.

Well V is backline and is a good production site, maybe I'll devote that to IMP settler building for you/Shoot. Your south is a lot closer to me, although your north is obviously better. I'll let you decide where to settle though.

- Kararorum VII has a pretty nice food bonus - perhaps whip a market/grocer into there and run merchants?

Probably, it still fits in my description of a fishing village with no production whatsoever, but with 2 food it can certainly run some merchants later on.

- Where are you planning on building Wall Street?

III most likely, although I'm not exactly sure how and when we'll be able to build it.

Me and Shoot were talking in game earlier, remarking how we both really liked how you were able to limit Sunrise's expansion eastward. If picking Rome was good for nothing else, it probably deterred Sunrise from settling aggressively towards you, paving the way for you to secure more than your fair share of the land between you two.

Rushing elo hell still would have been a lot of fun though

Yeah, Rome wasn't the best choice from an economic perspective. From a metagame perspective in a AW game, it was pretty good (although I think the reason I gained ground on sunrise isn't that we were Rome but rather sunrise crippled his expansion to support Sulla/Speaker's expansion). Using England instead would've meant some ownage with AGG Redcoats, but not having the early game advantage (plus with Team 1's tech rate they probably will beat us to Rifling anyway).

Rushing would've been fun nonetheless though.

A cat asking for fur? Don't cats have fur already?

Ok, there's no way I can top that...

You think you can out-preform dave at his own game?

Fine, you can both have fur since I've managed to get around 15 posts in my thread within 24 hours. You two have to decide who gets the first one though.

[Shoot the Moon]

Might be a bit late then. I'm tempted to build 2 galleys and 4 Knights to see if I can boat him sometime in the near future but I have no idea what his defenses are like (1 pike and a castle would own that). I can't settle floodplain in it's current location without doing something about Parley, so it's a bit of a conundrum.

I know that he has at the very least an archer, mace, keshik, and spear in the area (having seen the archer mace and spear and died to the keshik). Assuming he sees the galleys one turn out (that is I don't think you can do a completely blind attack can you?) he could just upgrade that spear and move everything else into the city, in addition to whipping a unit/building something in the time it takes you to get those units out.

Not sure how useful you building settlers would be for me -- I'm starting to run out of land already, and it's a pretty far journey to my north. Perhaps the only spot would be that backline filler to the SW of my capital (although I can also produce that settler pretty easily -- D'angelo is already more or less at it's pop cap, so having it build a settler for that wouldn't be a terrible option, let me know though). Let me know though if you want some fast workers; I can do that (already up to 17 myself, so I don't need more myself at the moment but can still put them in build queues).

[WarriorKnight]

I know that he has at the very least an archer, mace, keshik, and spear in the area (having seen the archer mace and spear and died to the keshik). Assuming he sees the galleys one turn out (that is I don't think you can do a completely blind attack can you?) he could just upgrade that spear and move everything else into the city, in addition to whipping a unit/building something in the time it takes you to get those units out.

Doesn't look promising then. I can't do a blind attack without circum or galleons, but it doesn't look like we'll get either one for some time.

Not sure how useful you building settlers would be for me -- I'm starting to run out of land already, and it's a pretty far journey to my north. Perhaps the only spot would be that backline filler to the SW of my capital (although I can also produce that settler pretty easily -- D'angelo is already more or less at it's pop cap, so having it build a settler for that wouldn't be a terrible option, let me know though). Let me know though if you want some fast workers; I can do that (already up to 17 myself, so I don't need more myself at the moment but can still put them in build queues).

Fair enough if you don't need any settlers from me. I could use a couple of FW's though for military reasons against sunrise though.