Rough payoff times and exchange rates

[T-hawk]

Of course it's unrealistic that the cottage economy gets no bulbs at all. Even the Financial-river-Bureaucracy cottage economy should have one city with the National Epic running a few specialists, to push out the first few really cheap Great People, when GPP converts to bulb beakers incredibly efficiently. Counting the NE multiplier, this ratio is 1:30 for the first scientist, 1:15 for the second, 1:10 for the third.

How about mid-game Great Merchant trade missions? Those commonly pay out more than a bulb, especially after accounting for gold:beaker skew (including that the deficit research burn gets the 1.2x prereq multiplier), and aren't restricted by the bulb preference list. Varies by game type of course; unavailable in Always War, great on island maps.

[luddite]

See, my original post wasn't that far off either, Luddite

Ha I guess not!

Of course it's unrealistic that the cottage economy gets no bulbs at all. Even the Financial-river-Bureaucracy cottage economy should have one city with the National Epic running a few specialists, to push out the first few really cheap Great People, when GPP converts to bulb beakers incredibly efficiently. Counting the NE multiplier, this ratio is 1:30 for the first scientist, 1:15 for the second, 1:10 for the third.

Sure. I didn't intend to model either of those as "optimal" ways to play, just a reasonable guess at what might happen with good micro while doing a pure specialist or cottage economy. Since Novice/Seven had considerably more research power in 23, that should be prove that there are better ways to play. I would guess that either a Financial Cottage Economy with a few Great People, or a mostly Specialist Economy with a few bureau cottages, is generally optimal. Coast/Lakes are also surprisingly solid. The theoretical max, I guess, would be something like the Fin Cottage economy while ALSO getting another 10,000 beakers from bulbs, plus whatever GLH trade routes could give you.

How about mid-game Great Merchant trade missions? Those commonly pay out more than a bulb, especially after accounting for gold:beaker skew (including that the deficit research burn gets the 1.2x prereq multiplier), and aren't restricted by the bulb preference list. Varies by game type of course; unavailable in Always War, great on island maps.

Yeah those are usually the best, assuming you don't mind waiting a few extra turns to cash it in. And assuming that your Great Merchant arrives safely at his destination...
I don't think there's ever been a game here where someone relied heavily on trade missions, but it would be interesting to see how that turned out!

[mackoti]

I don't think there's ever been a game here where someone relied heavily on trade missions, but it would be interesting to see how that turned out!

I dont know if 6-8 great merchants used for trade misoins count like heavy but i done that on pbem 10, and it was realy strong, i teched upgraded units, very good but you need someone to be at peace with near by and have a big city,Serdoa had all of that.

[luddite]

I dont know if 6-8 great merchants used for trade misoins count like heavy but i done that on pbem 10, and it was realy strong, i teched upgraded units, very good but you need someone to be at peace with near by and have a big city,Serdoa had all of that.

Hmm when was that? Was it all late game for unit upgrades, or did you use a lot early in the game to help you tech?

[mackoti]

Was after i got oxfor university, turn 110-115(i now late but i was just a replacemat) and for upgrades i used maximum 1 merchant and others 6-7 just to sustain my reseach .Was realy strong , and after that game irealy belive if you have wher to do trade, before oxford always go scientists and after merchants are way better.

[luddite]

That makes sense. Oxford definitely adds a lot of value to the Great Merchant missions. Only problem is that by the time you can't build Oxford until so late in the game, but maybe a PHI leader could make an early rush there.

[T-hawk]

Oxford definitely adds a lot of value to the Great Merchant missions.

I love that sentence. My theses on economic multipliers have hit their mark on educating the audience.

but maybe a PHI leader could make an early rush there.

Of course, if he does, he's used up the cheap GP slots on bulbing to Education, and the Great Merchants will be more expensive. That's always the problem with Philosophical, it defeats itself by escalating its own cost. It can put out some flashy results of quick bulbing, but the steak isn't there to back up the sizzle.

[pindicator]

I love that sentence. My theses on economic multipliers have hit their mark on educating the audience.

I still remember the Epic that sparked that discussion!

Of course, if he does, he's used up the cheap GP slots on bulbing to Education, and the Great Merchants will be more expensive. That's always the problem with Philosophical, it defeats itself by escalating its own cost. It can put out some flashy results of quick bulbing, but the steak isn't there to back up the sizzle.

But in a game where everything snowballs shouldn't quicker early bulbs be a huge payoff? Even if all PHI was good for was bulbing to Education quick, that in itself would be a good point to get cottages, cheap unis, and push to Democracy.

[luddite]

I love that sentence. My theses on economic multipliers have hit their mark on educating the audience.

Finally, after almost 8 years of playing this stupid game, I'm starting to learn how it works!

But in a game where everything snowballs shouldn't quicker early bulbs be a huge payoff? Even if all PHI was good for was bulbing to Education quick, that in itself would be a good point to get cottages, cheap unis, and push to Democracy.

Part of what makes this so confusing is that not everything does snowball. You can model it very roughly by assuming that everything snowballs at a constant rate, but that's not how a real game goes at all. Some techs like liberalism can pay off massively by getting them sooner, but if you bulb something like alphabet or theology early on it doesn't really help at all.

Getting education really early sounds nice, but unfortunately you wouldn't have enough developed cottagees yet to really take advantage of it, especially if you've been focused on specialists up to that point anyway. And if you used up all your GPP power on bulbs, it might take you forever to get from there to Democracy. It might actually be better just to settle some of the extra great people from PHI in your capital, so that they can get doubled by Oxford.

Lately I've been thinking that getting a really early merchant to bulb currency would be amazing... but unfortunately it's quite hard to GET a merchant before currency.