Civ/leader pick

[Lord Parkin]

If we will be going for a specialist econemy, yes cheap Libraries would be the key benefit. But we are financial and going for specialists it's like wasting financial trait. For a cottage economy the main benefit of creative is free border pop and cheap libraries are just icing on the cake. Other two cheap buildings (coloseum, and theatre) are just ... meh.

I never said anything about a specialist economy. Libraries are invaluable early buildings for the +25% research alone. The fact that they enable 2 Scientist slots means we have the option to generate an early Great Scientist in one city, which is also good play. As is using Scientists in a National Epic city eventually. But the +25% research is the main thing.

LP, if we realy choose Khmers having Inca at our disposal, we would make a world record in It's not without reason, why people regarded India and Inca as the strongest civs

Let's just see what the other nations pick. I think having access to War Elephants while no-one else does is a huge advantage. A silly one, created by the artificial rules - but a huge one nonetheless. The fact that the starting techs work well with our geography is just a bonus.

LP, to snipe Oracle, we need Mysticism. So from that perspective it doesn't matter if we choose Inca or Khmer, we would be at the same date there.

I was discussing IND vs non-IND. The civ has little to nothing to do with it.

Please do read my posts before responding to them.

[Mortius]

I never said anything about a specialist economy. Libraries are invaluable early buildings for the +25% research alone. The fact that they enable 2 Scientist slots means we have the option to generate an early Great Scientist in one city, which is also good play. As is using Scientists in a National Epic city eventually. But the +25% research is the main thing.

I know all of this, but the point is, what is the key benefit from crative to a financial leader. So, what would you choose if you can only choose one:
- free borders pop up
- cheap libraries

Let's just see what the other nations pick.

If you think they choose Khmers over Inca you strongly underestimate them.

[Lord Parkin]

I don't understand the question... both aspects of Creative are good. Terraces are also good. Having the only Elephants in the game would be great.

[Mortius]

I don't understand the question... both aspects of Creative are good.

Yeap, but you said that:

The key benefit of Creative is the cheap buildings, mostly the cheap Library.

And I don't agree with your opinion. IMO the key benefit is the free borders pop up, not the cheap library.

[nabaxo]

If we realy want Hannibal, Mongolia would be a better choice here not only Keshics are way earlier, but with Gers (stable with +4 xp) Hannibals Charismatic trait will mean something. With just Stables and Baracks, it will not.

True, but ever heard of settled Great Generals?

I realy doubt we will have more happiness that way I am affraid we will only have ivory instead of Fur or Silver

CHA is +1 happiness it itself.

[Mortius]

True, but ever heard of settled Great Generals?

Yeap. With one settled Great General Mongolia would have 9xp (3 promo) Keshiks from the start. Khmers would not.

[Mortius]

EDITED:

LP, I tried realy hard to understand your reasoning. I think I've got the point.

You don't want Inca, because you think we can land Stonehenge and the terraces culture bonus would't matter then ?

If it's the case.

Hey, you are probably right

80 hammers means we will be almost one city behind, but long term it would probably be better because of Great Prophet points.
I realy hope we land it, otherwise we are in a big hole.

If we pick Khmers, I realy hope it doesn't mean we will get Ivory (1,3,1 or 2,2,1) instead of like Gold (0,3,9) or even Fur (1,2,5). With such a civ we don't need to be additionally crippled.

With Khmers we realy need that additional Ivory resource in our fat cross (preferably riverside), to be at least slightly competitive.
I know hammerwise it's just a grassland hill, but we will need all the help we can get.

[Lord Parkin]

I'm not saying I don't want Inca. I just want Khmer more at the moment. They're all good choices, I'm just trying to go for the best choice for this particular setup.

Also, my point about the Terrace was only to clarify that it is NOT equivalent to free Creative (requires hammers + doesn't give other effects). It's quite nice nonetheless though.

I'm sure Commodore will be aware that swapping out something like Gold for an Ivory wouldn't be particularly fair. I don't think we need to worry about that.

[Mortius]

I'm sure Commodore will be aware that swapping out something like Gold for an Ivory wouldn't be particularly fair. I don't think we need to worry about that.

Ivory is the weakest early happy resource, so swaping it with anything wouldn't be fair.

[HitAnyKey]

Btw, I am hoping that we won't have constant debating back and forth on things between LP & Mortius all game long. I know this Civ/Leader pick is probably the biggest issue of the whole game, so that's why there is a big debate (and almost argument) over it, but it'll be kinda unfun to watch you two butt heads all game long.

I'm also slightly disappointed that we have so few people contributing to the discussion. I've tried to give some input, but I'm really not good with the intricacies of the Civs & Leaders to be of much help. I also have no skill at planning things out 20-30 turns in advance.

How many people do we even have on this team? It seems like we only have a small handful while the other teams have twice as many or in some case probably three times as many people. Now that could be both good & bad, but at this point in time it seems to give us much less feedback on some important decisions.

Like right now, both of the things Mortius & LP have been saying sound good to me. I currently have no clue which Civ we should be picking when our turn comes up. I'm also starting to get a little confused as to which options have which benefits and which drawbacks.