Turn Discussion Thread

[Lord Parkin]

From diplo with them it seems their other neighbour is the Tropical Trolls (Sury of India).

Shame we didn't find any seafood out on that peninsula to our west.

Agree with sending the Warrior home. As for the Scout, could do 2SE or 2NE (to meet Pirates).

[Azza]

I think we'd want to meet Pirates. Have to get the diplo feelers out asap in a game with unlimited diplo. If you don't have friends, you get left for dead.

[kjn]

I'm not sure 2SE is the best move for our scout, for lots of reasons.

With Gillette having met their other neighbour, we can only set up an EP deal by meeting another civ soon (ie the Pirates). Azza is correct in the need for getting early diplo going - we don't want to commit to Gillette as friends yet.

I think the Pirates - like us - sent their scout northwards. Thus, I doubt they know of the gold yet. Going 2NE with the scout will show them the scout at their south, but we could've come from the southeast for all they know, and we will be on an excellent defensive tile - 2.2 vs 1.75 to nab a scout isn't that good odds. We should be prepared to send a greeting directly when we meet them, though.

[Mortius]

Shame we didn't find any seafood out on that peninsula to our west.

Nonetheless our closest area looks very good

Agree with sending the Warrior home. As for the Scout, could do 2SE or 2NE (to meet Pirates).

Let's see the map:
The team deployment should looks something like that (otherwise it wouldn't be fair):



[SIZE="3"]What follows from this map arrangement?[/SIZE]

1. Both closest teams have very strong and inconvenient other neighbours

a) Pirates have Krill's TEAM as their neighbour.
Knowing Krill, he starts with a very aggressive expansion + his team is creative. Very inconvenient neighbour. I sense here a very stormy relationship :duel:

b) Gillette have Darell's Trolls as their neighbour.
Trolls choose a different approach. They took a non-financial leader. It means a specialist economy. And specialist economy is known for it's speed. Coupled that with Creative and Expansive India, and you have a recipe for a very fast and aggressive expansion. Could be stormy too :edrain:

2. Taking that into account we don't have a bad neighborhood and both of our neighbors will perceive us as the lesser of two evils ... if we don't screw it.


[SIZE="3"]What can spoil the relation between us and the Pirates?[/SIZE]
Of course the Gold city. We just must have it. It's not only because of gold income, it's also because of the Ivory we need, and the two early happy resources, which are huge (especially Gold - doubled by a forge). We can't give the city up... and Pirates probably can't do it too, and there is probably no real argument that could convince Pirates to give us such a great city.

[SIZE="3"]How to resolve this problem?[/SIZE]
Plant the gold city early (it can be planted on 36 turn) and then make the contact.

- this way you don't get the diplomatic penalty for pink doted them. We can always say that we didn't know that the city is so close to their capital too, and we only wanted to get the best spot for Ivory city, ... and that we can give them some concessions elsewhere in exchange ... etc. It's far better than contacting them, talking for dozens of turns and then straight pink doted them. It could spoil our relations for entire game.

- even if we delay the contact with them until 36+ turn, we will still be a better choice for a peacefull neighbour than Krill's TEAM.

If you wonder if it's possible to hide until turn 36. Yes, it is.
- If their scout start maping the area around their capital, like it should do, it would probably miss our capital. We discovered their capital barely, and only because of the terrain features (forest all around Gold).
- until turn 35-40 when the first settler arrive they will have no time for building additional units for scouting. If their scout missed us, there is nothing that can uncover us before 35 turn.

I think we'd want to meet Pirates. Have to get the diplo feelers out asap in a game with unlimited diplo. If you don't have friends, you get left for dead.

I don't think contacting them early will make them our friends in that circumstances.

[kjn]

Counting tiles, I get it that the gold is 7 tiles away from their capital - just as it was 7 tiles away from our start position (but we moved, and are now 6 tiles away). So I'm going to make a bold guess and say that there are four golds on this map - one between each team. It'd fit with Commodore's map style, too.

I think all teams are quite experienced and savvy here: I think all of them are set on using Civ skill first and diplomacy second to win. I also think most teams will hold map data closely. If we take the gold spot by out-expanding the Pirates and without going all BFF on them first, I don't think they would hold it against us much. We will have to show we can hold the city, of course.

[Lord Parkin]

Not sure how you arrive at 4 total golds on the map... think about it, it's not possible to distribute 4 of them fairly between 5 players.

I think it's reasonably likely that the civ layout looks something like what you have there. That would imply something like 20-25 tiles between us and TEAM + Trolls. Of course, more exploration is needed.

You make a reasonable argument for delaying contact, but I really think it's highly unlikely that Pirates still won't have met us by T35. Still not sure it's a good idea to intentionally avoid them right now.

[Mortius]

You make a reasonable argument for delaying contact, but I really think it's highly unlikely that Pirates still won't have met us by T35.

Let's see

Still not sure it's a good idea to intentionally avoid them right now.

We know now the gold city spot will be contested, they don't. I wouldn't throw this advantage away.
We don't loose anything delaying contact, but we still have much to gain.
The quickest gain is the +2 turns of scouting (not much but still)

[kjn]

Not sure how you arrive at 4 total golds on the map... think about it, it's not possible to distribute 4 of them fairly between 5 players.

I was thinking something similar to the PBEM 32-map, with vertical wrap. Then it's four gold. Using Mortius concept (which I think is more likely) there'd be 3 gold.

[Azza]

I don't think contacting them early will make them our friends in that circumstances.

Whether we contact them or not, they won't be thrilled by an Ivory/Gold plant. If we can't talk them into allowing us to settle there, a site closer to our capital than theirs, we may as well give up now.

[Mortius]

Whether we contact them or not, they won't be thrilled by an Ivory/Gold plant. If we can't talk them into allowing us to settle there, a site closer to our capital than theirs, we may as well give up now.

The spot is exactly in between our capitals. Gold and especially Corn is closer to them.
Let's try to plant the city asap, if they discover us, there will be time for diplomacy, but I am affraid we will not be able to settle in the best spot then.