American Politics Discussion Thread

[BRickAstley]

Also: I'd prefer we refrain from personal insults. [...] the only thing we can influence is how we behave ourselves, not how others behave. I'd rather we show that civility is not optional but a necessity in such political discussions (and really generally in life) and maybe others will take note and do the same, making these discussions for all better.

[Boro]

Looks like my symptoms abated, my immune system must have figured something out.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

That's good to hear, but just be warned, viral phase symptoms can come in waves, there may be a few ups and downs before you're recovered. But you sound like you're stable, just keep an eye on your body, stay isolated, stay hydrated, stay fed. And get some sleep, its past midnight in central EU.

How's your mom doing, is she still getting through it?

[Boro]

Looks like she'll be getting some sleep too (cycles are a little shifted towards 1-2am sleeps), and while she isnt feeling as well as I do, even her symptoms lessened. Appetite returned after first day, other gastrointestinal symptoms vary. Mine are low by now, hers are still stronger.

She wonders if its salmonella now. Tests will come tomorrow to clear it up.

Doing all the recommendations.

[T-hawk]

Good to hear, Boro. What I heard from multiple people I know who had Covid is that there's a second impact - you feel it in the throat at first, then the "glass in your lungs" effect a day or two later; hope you get through that if it happens. Get vitamin D too - it seems that it's never too late for that to help.

The thing that makes this really sad is imaging the opposite situation. Trump won and the Dems would want to investigate if there was voter fraud. You can ask yourself T-hawk, if you would argue the same towards Republican voters - that it is just fair process to investigate all allegations, that we have to wait till the EC really voted before we declare Trump winner - as you do now towards Democrats. Don't answer that to me though, just answer it to yourself.

Like, why wouldn't I answer this, and in the affirmative? Yes if Trump won and the Dems thought there was fraud, I'd want investigation. (Of course you may or may not believe me.) I was actually kinda surprised in 2016 that there weren't any real challenges before the electoral college resolved. I was never even against the Russia investigations that the Dems carried on for four years; if there was reality to that then I'd want to know. (BTW, it's amazing how fast any talk of Russia disappeared now that the Dems don't want any examining of the election results.)

One complicating factor for the perceptions of fraud is that most of what Dems (and their CNN mouthpiece) think is fraud isn't. Things like voter registration requirements, registration purges for previous inactivity or whatever reason, ballot verification based on dates or signatures or residence or whatever - all this proceeds lawfully even if Dems complain about it (and CNN will eagerly help outrage them into believing what they want to believe.)

The possible cases I'm bringing up are what's on thedonald.win, that's no secret. Of course I know the credibility is going to be low or none. I don't even believe it's likely that Trump wins, his odds are maybe about 10% by now. I'm just keeping the possibility open. Yes he needs multiple states to swing against what appear to be the current results - and Dominion is both the most questionable aspect at the moment and the way that would be correlated across multiple states. Cyneheard keeps talking about the court cases -- we'll see if any happen, and if not, then it goes to Biden.

As I said, I draw the line at the electoral college outcome. If that votes against Trump, then he's done IMO. There can be a remaining gray area about the electoral college itself -- if there's any controversy about what electors get designated by a state or recognized federally somehow. That happened once before, in 1878 or whatever it was in Reconstruction. I'm not sure how I would think if SCOTUS gets involved in some state issue - it would depend on the details.

[Serdoa]

Don't get me wrong T-hawk, but first it was that we had to wait for all the results, then it was that we have to wait for the (non-existent) court cases, then it was that we have to wait for the EC - and now we are at the point that "well, there COULD be a gray area about the EC". So basically the hope is that somehow, no matter the votes, no matter if there was any voter fraud found or not, no matter how the EC does vote, the SCOTUS "decides" that Trump is president? 

Even if that would happen, do you believe that 70+ million people in America - and probably even some of those that voted Republican - will happily sit by if the vote is ignored, the EC is ignored, basically the whole of democracy is ignored? There is a point were one should accept defeat because trying to win by all means will lead to tears in the end. After a game-night you'll most likely never play with such a person again, but when it is about the presidential election...

[darrelljs]

The possible cases I'm bringing up are what's on thedonald.win, that's no secret.  Of course I know the credibility is going to be low or none.  I don't even believe it's likely that Trump wins, his odds are maybe about 10% by now.  I'm just keeping the possibility open.  Yes he needs multiple states to swing against what appear to be the current results - and Dominion is both the most questionable aspect at the moment and the way that would be correlated across multiple states.  Cyneheard keeps talking about the court cases -- we'll see if any happen, and if not, then it goes to Biden.

So 10% is the coup chance, then ?

Perused thedonald.win a bit and I didn’t see much in the way of proof. It’s traditional to follow up accusations with evidence, and twelve days on we still haven’t seen anything compelling.

Darrell

[Jowy]

Yes he needs multiple states to swing against what appear to be the current results - and Dominion is both the most questionable aspect at the moment and the way that would be correlated across multiple states.  Cyneheard keeps talking about the court cases -- we'll see if any happen, and if not, then it goes to Biden.

I don't know why I even bothered to post the fact check on that. Republicans live in their own world.

As I said, I draw the line at the electoral college outcome.  If that votes against Trump, then he's done IMO.  There can be a remaining gray area about the electoral college itself -- if there's any controversy about what electors get designated by a state or recognized federally somehow.  That happened once before, in 1878 or whatever it was in Reconstruction.  I'm not sure how I would think if SCOTUS gets involved in some state issue - it would depend on the details.

A steal in electoral college with faithless electors voting AGAINST what the people in their state voted for is not democratic.

It is becoming increasinly obvious you only care about democracy when it benefits your side.

[Jowy]

Like, why wouldn't I answer this, and in the affirmative?  Yes if Trump won and the Dems thought there was fraud, I'd want investigation.  (Of course you may or may not believe me.)  I was actually kinda surprised in 2016 that there weren't any real challenges before the electoral college resolved.  I was never even against the Russia investigations that the Dems carried on for four years; if there was reality to that then I'd want to know.  (BTW, it's amazing how fast any talk of Russia disappeared now that the Dems don't want any examining of the election results.)

Republicans have literally been blocking bipartisan election security bills before the election.

One complicating factor for the perceptions of fraud is that most of what Dems (and their CNN mouthpiece) think is fraud isn't.  Things like voter registration requirements, registration purges for previous inactivity or whatever reason, ballot verification based on dates or signatures or residence or whatever - all this proceeds lawfully even if Dems complain about it (and CNN will eagerly help outrage them into believing what they want to believe.)

That's called voter suppression and it's one of the major tactics Republicans employ to improve their share of the vote.

The possible cases I'm bringing up are what's on thedonald.win, that's no secret.  Of course I know the credibility is going to be low or none.  I don't even believe it's likely that Trump wins, his odds are maybe about 10% by now.  I'm just keeping the possibility open.  Yes he needs multiple states to swing against what appear to be the current results - and Dominion is both the most questionable aspect at the moment and the way that would be correlated across multiple states.  Cyneheard keeps talking about the court cases -- we'll see if any happen, and if not, then it goes to Biden.

I have more respect for Republicans who are ignorant and really believe the lies, than Republicans who know they are full of crap and still support the party and spread the lies.

[Mjmd]

I mean the problem with baseless accusations is twofold.
1) The populace as a whole is less likely to believe valid concerns / will tune out of valid issues (boy who cried wolf and all that).
2) It makes it easier for the other side to play the "well look at the junk you believe" game. Again distracting from valid issues.
Edit: I want to say that T-Hawk has made valid arguments (along side some not so valid), but many people here are now saying "don't listen to anything he says". This is exactly the wrong attitude and proves both the above even in this small sphere.

Both sides SHOULD BE concerned about this. Otherwise you just end up in a cycle of idiocy where anything valid is lost in the noise. I swear that is how Trump got away with so much of his garbage. He just made so much of it it got all got lost in noise.

Republicans if they actually think there is voter fraud should make a deal where a independent prosecutor looks into it (instead of chucking up a multitude of baseless suits that don't help how how legitimate their concerns are viewed by any remaining people who think for themselves). In return they promise a peaceful transition to power and actually start that transition. Even many Republicans who think there is voter fraud are aware that it almost certainly doesn't rise to the level needed to change the result. Just like 2016 Russia interference. This was verified to have happened; however, it almost certainly didn't change the result. Both issues need to be looked into and fixed if needed. The way Republicans are going about this isn't helping their case in the court of public opinion and it certainly isn't helping the future of American democracy.