RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

Replied back to dreylin

Good to hear from you. It's too bad that your enthusiasm for the game has waned. Mine has too, to some degree, so I can at least sympathize some with the effort it takes to deal with diplo with lots of players, lots of cities to manage, all the while having to deal with pauses and searches for replacement players.

Perhaps that's why the time that sunrise and us were whomping Exploit stands out as a fun time (I will definitely agree that it was one of if not the top time for me as well). Life was simple. No disrespect intended (okay, maybe a leeeetle disrespect), but it was essentially like playing an AI, and was therefore somewhat analagous to SP games that are kind of the lifeblood of Civ. Plus it's always fun to be on a cooperative side, and it's always fun when you win! (And in convincing fashion to boot!)

So would any agreements you have with Broker rule out the possibility of tech trades between us, or other non-military cooperation?

I doubt he'll go for any tech trading, but he might

[regoarrarr]

In other diplo news, I have agreed with Alex of Persia on a NAP that has a 10 turn cool down period.

so going back to our agreement - shall we say standard NAP with 10 turn cool down?
that way once broker is gone we can initiate it
no active spying, no gifting troops to others so they can war by proxy, and no allowing your lands to be used for hostilities (RoP)
Alex: Uh... sorry, I can't just sign a 'standard' NAP because I don't know what the 'standard' terms are. I'm happy in principle, though.
me: lol
4:41 PM i was getting there!
Alex: Oh, ok.
me: so that last paragaph plus the obvious no war
Alex: And the 10 turn cool down means we can change that whenever we want, but we have to give 10 turns notice first.
4:42 PM me: right
which is why i can't attack broker till t232
because on t222 he said he was cancelling our agreement
4:43 PM Alex: There's one more thing I'd want to talk about first. Which is intentions afterwards.
me: ok
Alex: My thought is that this war is going to be big, and I'd be quite happy to see world peace afterwards.
me: yeah
4:44 PM Alex: I mean, things can change. One of us could do something really out of line, or whatever, and we could find each other fighting. So I'd rather not sign a binding treaty for the rest of the game.
me: understood
what would you propose
4:45 PM Alex: But I'd be up for signing a 10 turn NAP agreement, and also putting in writing that we plan to work for peace afterwards if possible.
I know, that doesn't 'change' anything. But it's still a commitment to pursue that as route 1.
& it makes it clear where we stand.
Your thoughts?
me: so a 10 turn NAP agreement means one that lasts for 10 turns? or the 10 turn cancellation one i described?
Alex: The one you described.
me: okay
yes i can agree to that
4:46 PM Alex: Okay. So... shakes on it
me: heh
agreed

Obviously a NAP with my other neighbor is huge for me.

I also confirmed with TT that his "no nukes, no war" after Broker is dealt with essentially means a game long NAP. I asked about spying, and he said no, then yes, then he wasn't sure. We ended it with agreeing to decide after Broker was dealt with.

Elkad seems to think that Broker will NEVER be dealt with (i.e. the game will end before Broker is crippled), which very well may be true. I've got my plans for space, which I will share in a future post.

[regoarrarr]

Okay working on my golden ages - a bit of a tactical problem.

Forest Park, my NP/ NE city, is currently at size 10, with 37/40 in the food box.

It's working the city center, a 4 food sheep, 8 grass tiles (2 food), and a plains preserve (1 food).

See pic from last turn



So I can pull 2 laborers off the fields and put them as additional GPs, which will make 106GPP/t or 159GPP/t in a golden age.

But if I wait one turn, my +3 surplus will put me at size 11. I'm trying to think if that will do anything for me. As far as I can tell, I still can only work the center, 4 food sheep, and 8 grass tiles, which just means that I am still only hiring 2 specialists.

So all going to size 11 gets me is the 1 hpt (2 in GA). Compared, to 6 GP points by hiring the 2 specs an extra turn earlier.

Probably worth it, but when I consider the fact that the extra 17 food in the box (37/40 food vs. 20/42 after growth) allows 8 extra specialist turns before starving, I think it's not.

The other thing I just realized when looking at this picture, is that I should probably farm over the bare grassland. The reason I haven't is to induce forest spread (it's worked twice already this game). But we're getting to the point where the odds are starting to get lower. And, again if you ignore the hammer from the forest if it would spread, a 4 food farm that allows you to hire a specialist is equal to a 2 food forest preserve that gives a free specialist, right?

If the grass was farmed, at size 10 I could work the city center, the 2 4-food tiles, and 5 other grass tiles, allowing me to hire 3 specialists.

[regoarrarr]

Okay - I still have to deal with the possible espionage / sabotaging of my spaceship. But I'll process that in another "thread", and right now I am just working on getting it up ASAP. I am probably going to have to do my share of defensive AND offensive espionage.

Okay, so since I am in the middle of my 1 person GA, I need 9 additional GPs to kick off 3 more GAs (the 2, 3 and 4 person ones). I currently have 3 GPs (2 Scientists and 1 Artist), so I need 6 more. The GE from Fusion is in play (though certainly not guaranteed), and Sunrise will be providing me with a merchant within a turn or two.

In looking at things from the previous post, by T256, counting 18 turns of GA (2 full GAs plus the last 2 turns of this one) at 168GPP/t and the other 9 turns of 112GPP/t, that will get me up to 4246 GPP generated (800+900+1000+1200+318 left on the 700 person is 4218 ). So that is 1 GPP extra buffer, which allows a cushion in case I don't get the right types of GP, or I miss the GE from Fusion, or I need to use my current artist to bring Mason out of revolt for the Internet race.

So on the flip side (research), if I can get the Internet, that will drop my beakers needed from 74556 to 47949 (subtracting Rocketry, Medicine, Fission and Genetics which is my current plan to research after Fusion). That allows me to kick off the 2 person GA at T240, and go for 24 turns of GA (2, 3 and 4 person back to back). I finish the tech tree on T256, which gives me 8 turns to do parts. Genetics should take 4 turns, and then I have 4 turns to build the Stasis Chamber (or really probably chop most of it).

Still gotta figure out how best to handle the espionage. My current thought right now is to almost complete all parts, then leave them in the queue. Then when the last part is completed, wait till the end of turn, swap all the builds over to the spaceship ones, roll turn, and launch.

I need to plan which cities are doing what, including what forests are available at the different cities.

[Rowain]

The diplo-changes in this game makes ones head spin

About spies. Not only the completed parts can be sabotaged but also the production. One way to stop one from spacing is to make sure he never completes Apollo.

[regoarrarr]

The diplo-changes in this game makes ones head spin

About spies. Not only the completed parts can be sabotaged but also the production. One way to stop one from spacing is to make sure he never completes Apollo.

That could be challenging.

I probably need to do some WB tests on this, but hypothetically, if I get say 1199/1200 hammers on a particular SS part, but then never finish it (i.e. swap something else in the queue, then it can't be sabotaged, since the sabotage production should be for whatever else is in the queue. And it won't have completed, so that can't be sabotaged either (though in looking at things, that mission is REALLY expensive)

What I'd REALLY like to do is keep swapping it out at the end / beginning of turns but that is prohibited by the rules of our game.

[regoarrarr]

The diplo-changes in this game makes ones head spin

To comment on this part too - I just think that it goes to show the incredible difficulties of keeping together a multi-party alliance, especially a "stop the leader" alliance, like the one that was seemingly being put together against me.

We've seen it fail many times, and in some cases even fail to start.

The one time it was successful in this game was against Exploit, and I credit that mostly to poor diplomacy on his side.

[regoarrarr]

An interesting chat with Broker

Broker: Pretty irriatated with PB1 right about now
Dan: oh?
Broker: Yep probably just gonna toss it in dont have the energy for this crap anymore
Dan: ?
Broker: Shady aranges a big attack so I agree to help
he quites
now nobody is talking to me and acticing like I planed it
No point in working with anyone
Sent at 9:58 AM on Monday
Broker: no comment?\
I wont ask for a replacement I will just gift off my cities
Sent at 10:04 AM on Monday
Dan: sorry stepped away
i'm torn between asking for all of your cities and remembering how much trouble i got in when i got all of exploit's stuff :-D
Sent at 10:08 AM on Monday
Broker: If I do I would just split between lins and munro
Just pretty fed up right nwo
Dan: yeah
Sent at 10:17 AM on Monday
Broker: Pauses ruined it
Dan: could be
Broker: enjoy you win
Dan: well if you want me to win, you could at least give ME all your cities :-)
Broker: You are going to win anyway
apparently I am the only one who sees that but they want to ask for my help then quit and blame me for the plan that is thier problem
Sent at 10:21 AM on Monday
Broker: although I could be just being paranoid but the info I got in my email just pissed me off
Dan: what did it say?
Broker: trades denied nor responses....
writing on the wall assume you chatted them all up
Sent at 10:25 AM on Monday
Broker: sent them an email see what they answer
most likely gonna jerk me around but lets see
Dan: maybe such a large game was overly ambitious
i know dreylin has commented to me that it's just a lot of work with such a large empire
managing the diplo, the empire iteslef, etc
Broker: That doenst bother me
delays do
diplo was fine have a plan then 2 week delay plan is useless
Just real tired of the crap
should suspend diplo during delays
I keep all my agreements and it has hosed me every time just not interested anymore

So it looks like he has sniffed out at least a little bit of the diplo-changes that are floating around. I can understand his frustration (better than anyone else I'd think!) but he is wrong that it was the pauses that caused this. As all you lurkers know, things got worked out even before we paused for him leaving. I guess it was a little bit due to the pause that I had myself, but I didn't do (much?) diplo during that. You can certainly make a case that shadyforce leaving for AlexRDavies had a big impact on things, but I don't know how you solve that.

Here were my first 2 thoughts

1) A bit of annoyance that now that the shoe is on the other fit he just wants to quit. When *I* was getting the shaft from every other power on the world, oh then things were fine and dandy but NOW it's somehow different? I wanted to explore that a bit during our chat but didn't really feel like getting into it with him. He is correct that the situations aren't exactly the same but still I think they're awful similar.

2) Hmm can't remember what the other thought was - let's just say it was what I said earlier - that it wasn't really the pause that did it.

[MJW (ya that one)]

Awesome job on making a comeback!

It is very hard for us lurkers to really tell what is going on due to a lack of posts. Assuming that Broker does resign I like how ZPV's civ masterminded Broker's downfall.

[regoarrarr]

Awesome job on making a comeback!

It is very hard for us lurkers to really tell what is going on due to a lack of posts. Assuming that Broker does resign I like how ZPV's civ masterminded Broker's downfall.

Ah well don't congratulate me too soon.

Email from TT to Alex and Elkad, blind copying me

With the long break which has been going on, I have been thinking long and hard about what is best for this game.

Although you may be right that switching sides now could be better for my civ in the long run, I am not sure. I am playing my first PitBoss game and I am learning just how difficult these things can be. I have been trying my best to get to grips with it but it is a wild beast and hard to tame. In hindsight, I may have been too inexperienced to take on this game, but now I am in I will stick it out.

I am going to be straight with you all. I think it is a 50/50 chance for my civ based on who I pick to side with in the coming war and I have decided that I am going to do the honourable thing. I made a commitment to Broker first and I am choosing to honour that. I have shown my inexperience at this game and I realise that what I should have done is make one set of commitments and stick to them. I realise that you may thing of this as me breaking my word to switch sides, and I can only apologise if you think that.

I will not put any pressure on either Alex or Elkad to follow me in this action. I made the pledge to Broker and if you two want to switch then it is your prerogative.

I could fill this email with heavy handed words and misdirection and give you phoney reasons for this, but I will not. I am just doing what I think is the honourable thing to do.

Good luck to you all

So that stinks, though probably not too surprising, giving Broker's attitude today. I'm going to have to try and pull out the stops with him tonight or tomorrow, but I don't know if it's going to work.