[SPOILERS] JR4 tries his luck in PB 37

[JR4]

It was kind of bad timing that Gavagai should be unavailable to play for a couple of days now that we are planning an attack. The turn pace has generally been pretty good lately, though, so I don`t mind too much really.

I`m a bit unsure of how many Frigates we can get into position on t175, I`ll have to check next time in game. The plan is to whip out most of the half-built Triremes next turn but they may not have enough hammers invested in them to complete as Frigates.. So that`s a complicating factor. Whipping a second time sounds a bit non-ideal to say the least. We could use another few Galleons to be sure that we break through the defenses.

In order to complete Chemistry eot173 we might have to hire a bunch of Scientists (firing most Merchants for a turn) and/or working a bit more coast. It`s still easily worth the investment imo. Getting Steel next would actually make a lot of sense as Cannons and Drydocks are going to be very good for us. Perhaps we should think about getting Civil Service first for a Bureaucracy/Theocracy swap? Or we could go for Theocracy/Vassalage for maximum XP. Borte would certainly be happy about the hammer (and the economic) boost. The big question is which tech dtay takes as his Liberalism free tech. If he takes Steel, I think we have to follow him there (maybe even building Wealth) in order to have an answer for his superior units. If he takes something else or just waits even longer, we might get Civil Service first.

[JR4]

So, I guess we have to wait for Dark Savant to play his turn before playing t173. We`re considering a t175 attack on DS and therefore we should stick to the second half of the timer. Civstats suggest that we got only a medium score increase (only 28 points) when the Apostolic Palace was set to finish. Joey got a massive increase of 60 points. He didn`t just steal it away from us, right? We`ll find out soon enough.

EDIT: Also, I wonder what`s going on in Krill`s thread. A large number of lurkers have commented there lately. Maybe he`s planning a big attack?

[RefSteel]

So, I guess we have to wait for Dark Savant to play his turn before playing t173.

Yeah; we're close enough to an attack (including a possible opportunistic attack on very short notice, in case one opens up) that we should take extra care not to double-move him, and we played after him last turn.

Civstats suggest that we got only a medium score increase (only 28 points) when the Apostolic Palace was set to finish. Joey got a massive increase of 60 points. He didn`t just steal it away from us, right? We`ll find out soon enough.

No chance. I'm not sure how many of our cities grew last turn, but I doubt if it's the 11 it would take to make up 28 points of score increase. GJ on the other hand has half a million growable cities, could have finished a renaissance tech for all we know ... and captured multiple Chinese cities 20 turns ago, probably giving him cultural control of a bunch of tiles that had previously been contested (plus the city centers themselves) for which he would be getting score points now. But the main point is: GJ's state religion is Buddhism. He knows we founded Christianity [EDIT: and therefore are surely building the AP, while having Buddhist buildings everywhere]. Why would he spend the hammers on a Buddhist AP when he knows we're sure to do it for him?

EDIT: Also, I wonder what`s going on in Krill`s thread. A large number of lurkers have commented there lately. Maybe he`s planning a big attack?

I mean, could be - or he could have come up with a clever plan to get lib or land a wonder ... or he could have gotten bored while Gav was away, and posted a tier list or a controversial opinion about the mod and/or civ 6! I'm glad a lot of people are following this game though, and that we're not the only ones reporting consistently!

[RefSteel]

On frigates, by the way:  In order for a whipped trireme to be completed as a frigate as soon as Chemistry comes in, assuming the city has a forge, it would need the following number of hammers already in the trireme prior to the whip:

[EDIT: I accidentally hit post before actually typing or even working out the details; I've added them below.]

(If the city doesn't have a forge it won't be able to finish a Frigate on the same turn Chemistry completes unless we cascade into it with at least two separate builds.)

[JR4]

The exact number of hammers needed for Triremes to upgrade to Frigates would be very helpful indeed! Those Frigates are pretty expensive but also well worth the investment on this map I think. It`s looking pretty difficult to arrange everything already t175 but I`ll see what I can do in game. Those Oromo Warriors are pretty good defensively so hopefully we`ll strike before a large OW force is in place.

[RefSteel]

Well, Triremes cost 50h apiece, and Frigates cost 90. (Unless my memory is failing me due to lack of sleep, but that should be right.) So this means:

(All hpt figures are adjusted hammers per turn after the forge multiplier if any.)

City makes 1-4 hpt: Can't be done without a cascade, even with a forge.
City makes 5+ hpt and has a forge: Total of existing hammers + adusted hpt must equal at least 53.
City makes 11+ hpt and somehow still lacks a forge: Total of existing hammers + hpt must equal at least 60.
City makes 16+ hpt, has a forge, and hasn't started a Trireme yet: If we can put just 12 hammers into the Trireme, we'll be able to two-pop-whip it, go back to working the tiles needed for 16+ adjusted hpt, and thereby complete it as a Frigate as Chemistry comes in.

If Chemistry is going to come in EoT174, there isn't time to set up a cascade unless we already have hammers in both a Trireme and something else in the city; even then, it depends on how many hammers are in each thing and what the other thing is. On the other hand, whipping the trireme, not completing the frigate, and then whipping the frigate itself isn't terrible considering that happiness doesn't seem like a problem for us right now and this gets us around RtR's multi-pop whipping penalty. It would of course delay the Frigate by a turn, but it looks to me like our Frigate builds won't all be able to get to the front on the same turn regardless, so how much of a delay this really causes depends on which city it's in, and how many ships we're waiting for before we attack.

[shallow_thought]

Well, Triremes cost 50h apiece, and Frigates cost 90.  (Unless my memory is failing me due to lack of sleep, but that should be right.)  So this means:

(All hpt figures are adjusted hammers per turn after the forge multiplier if any.)

City makes 1-4 hpt:  Can't be done without a cascade, even with a forge.
City makes 5+ hpt and has a forge:  Total of existing hammers + adusted hpt must equal at least 53.
City makes 11+ hpt and somehow still lacks a forge:  Total of existing hammers + hpt must equal at least 60.
City makes 16+ hpt, has a forge, and hasn't started a Trireme yet:  If we can put just 12 hammers into the Trireme, we'll be able to two-pop-whip it, go back to working the tiles needed for 16+ adjusted hpt, and thereby complete it as a Frigate as Chemistry comes in.

If Chemistry is going to come in EoT174, there isn't time to set up a cascade unless we already have hammers in both a Trireme and something else in the city; even then, it depends on how many hammers are in each thing and what the other thing is.  On the other hand, whipping the trireme, not completing the frigate, and then whipping the frigate itself isn't terrible considering that happiness doesn't seem like a problem for us right now and this gets us around RtR's multi-pop whipping penalty.  It would of course delay the Frigate by a turn, but it looks to me like our Frigate builds won't all be able to get to the front on the same turn regardless, so how much of a delay this really causes depends on which city it's in, and how many ships we're waiting for before we attack.

I'm still considering changing my signature to "Ref, stop reading this and get some sleep".

On the other hand, if one of you gets a chance could you explain what you mean by a "cascade" here? My understanding of whipping and overflow tricks is mediocre anyway, but this one is definitely new to me.

I really like the AP move. It's fun, and it should benefit you more than other player (SPI for cheap temples, Buddhism everywhere already). I've lost track of (a) which religion others (particularly GJ and Dtay) are following, and (b) where the AP city is (will be?), but it may give one of the current neighbouring superpowers a reason to prefer to keep you alive rather than risk seeing see the AP fall to a different religion (if I've understood the mechanics of the AP correctly).

[JR4]

I'm still considering changing my signature to "Ref, stop reading this and get some sleep".

On the other hand, if one of you gets a chance could you explain what you mean by a "cascade" here? My understanding of whipping and overflow tricks is mediocre anyway, but this one is definitely new to me.

I really like the AP move. It's fun, and it should benefit you more than other player (SPI for cheap temples, Buddhism everywhere already). I've lost track of (a) which religion others (particularly GJ and Dtay) are following, and (b) where the AP city is (will be?), but it may give one of the current neighbouring superpowers a reason to prefer to keep you alive rather than risk seeing see the AP fall to a different religion (if I've understood the mechanics of the AP correctly).

I think I`ll just leave the question of overflow cascade to RefSteel, as I`m not sure how the mechanics work. It`s probably about how we can get maximum overflow from a small build into a bigger build but it`s pretty tricky to find out exactly how it works. Oh, and @RefSteel: Do take care to get enough sleep.

As long as we keep Bulugan (on the northern coast near dtay) we won`t have to think about how the loss of the Apostolic Palace would affect us. Krill and Gavagai probably want us to stay alive, even without the AP but you`ll never know.. Maybe Joey would rather us have it than dtay?

Dtay is following the Hindu faith (the one Krill founded), while Joey, Gavagai and Dark Savant are all good Buddhists!

EDIT: Whipping twice over the coming turns in order to complete some Frigates is definitely an option.

[RefSteel]

Thanks, guys.  For what it's worth, believe it or not, the reason for my lack of sleep is pretty much never reading the forums late at night.  (Rather the other way around, but that would probably lead to inaccurate assumptions as well, so....)

Overflow cascade:  This is a timing trick to maximize the number of hammers you can put into something (a wonder, a new unit type, etc.) on the first turn you can build it (or the first turn you connect a doubler resource, etc.  It can also be used to put multiple whips into something (e.g. a wonder or a project) that normally can't be (efficiently) whipped at all.  (Or, as in this case, a unit that due to queue upgrade timing can't be whipped yet.  Be careful with cascades:  The maximum overflow from a given build applies at each stage, and it is rarely worthwhile to set one up if the builds you're using to cascade are things you don't actually care about building in their own right or if one or more of them is time-critical and would be delayed by the cascade.  Also, multiple whips in a short time (the most powerful form of a cascade) can be problematic, especially when happiness is tight.

All that said, the idea is to start one build, set it up to maximize overflow, pause it to start a different build, set that up to maximize overflow, and then finish both builds on successive turns so the overflow from one adds to the overflow from the other.  For instance, at a city with low production and a forge, having put 12 hammers into a Trireme and say 4h in a Workboat that we wanted for something, we could whip the workboat, then put about 16 base hammers of overflow into the trireme on the same turn that we double-whip it, resulting in a Trireme with 74h invested in it post-whip and receiving over 20h more from overflow and regular production, thanks to the forge.  The result would be that at the end of the turn, the Trireme would have 95+ hammers in it, which would finish it with lots of overflow ... except that we'd be completing Chemistry on the same interturn, causing the Trireme to upgrade to a Frigate in the queue, which (thanks to having more than the 90 hammers needed) would still complete, with just a few hammers of overflow.

Note that normally if we would have had over 100 hammers in a Trireme, all but those first 100 would be lost as excess overflow - but if a Trireme with over 100 hammers in it upgrades in the queue to a Frigate, the hammers are not lost (unless they exceed 180) because they never completed, nor overflowed from, a 50h Trireme. We took advantage of this in a couple of cities when Guilds came in to complete two Knights on consecutive turns immediately after Guilds came in.

[RefSteel]

I just keep falling further and further behind, partly because finding pictures I like takes forever, but partly because even with the slow-downs lately, our turn pace for this late in the game has been pretty great!

The clansfolk who would found the city of Chubei, clearing the wood where Clan Chimeegüi Yarij still stood guard, were certainly drawn by tales of virgin silver in the hills and copper amid the rocky forest itself, all just waiting to be claimed and mined and traded for wealth almost - but of course not quite - beyond a prospector's wildest imaginings.  They may even have been attracted by the idea of forming a bulwark against the Zulu, and the pride that would come from standing tall as the first and latest line of defense for the heart of the Khatunate.  There were other reasons too though:  The old silver-mining clans who made up the bulk of Chubei's founding population were deeply conservative in their thinking, mistrusting innovation in spite of the way the output of their silver mines so often drove it by encouraging trade, and relying on ancient traditions that they believed were instrumental in keeping them alive in the dangerous mines where they worked.  



They had suffered much under the Khürel Noyod aristocracy, and as for the teachings of Buddhism that proliferated throughout the streets of Muqa, most of the miners had wanted no part of them, lest in adopting the new names and practices they might anger the spirits who - according to their clan mythology - had watched over them and their ancestors for centuries.  The silver miners of Muqa had therefore been growing apart from the city for some three generations when they finally made their way north the the outlet of East Banana Lake.  With word from the Zalitai Ir that Zulu forces were continuing to move away, the Chubei clans - outcasts in Muqa for the better part of a century - were confident and hopeful enough to plan their new settlement even in the face of another encroaching tribe out of the wilds of the northeast.



The newcomers, violent and dangerous though they would prove, skirted the borders of the Khatunate, too well aware of the urgency and skill with which the People of the Eternal Empress would defend their homes.  Instead, sneaking through the jungles, they sought to take the ancient, peaceful Ulamjlal clan by surprise, seeing their camps high in the silver-rich highlands where they had been working steadily for generations, cutting into hillsides, digging up boulders, and shoring up unstable ledges so that the pasturefolk to the west and the people of Chubei by the lake would have ready access to the little camps where Ulamjlal prospectors were already searching for the best silver lodes.



The wild tribe that hunted them, careful to stay concealed beneath the jungle eaves and then the seaward slopes of the silver hills, crossed over the hills unchallenged all the way to the sites of the camps of which they told hungry stories ... only to discover there was no one there.  Looking out over the river valley below, they could see the distinctive flags of the Ulamjlal flying over camps far off in the distance, across the river, in the lushest cattle-grazing land in the Khatunate to that date, as their people worked to tame the wild cattle and develop their pastureland.  In the time it had taken the invading tribe to sneak through the thick, tangled jungle and up the sides of the silver hills, the nomadic Ulamjlal had simply struck their tents, descended along the roads they had made, crossed the river, and set up camps anew, in answer to Chubei's needs.



The chieftain of the invading tribe, robbed of his opportunity to soak his men's hands in the blood of helpless innocents while claiming all their wealth and property for his own - for his tribe's own that is, naturally - spat a curse.  "If you will give me no battle, O cowards of the Khatunate, then you shall..."  He stopped, as motion caught his eye along the road cut by decades of Ulamjlal labor.  There were people coming - to judge by their banners, another nomadic tribe!  Perhaps the people of Chubei still were unaware of the danger he and his people represented; perhaps he would have an opportunity to lead his people into battle after all.  "See where they come!" he cried to his son, Gorgorgus the Bloody-Headed.  "See where they approach even now!  Mark my words, for I swear to you by the Nose of the Ancient Terror, there shall be a slaughter in these hills, and they shall run red with blood!"



"Sounds good, Pop," said Gorgorgus the Bloody-Headed, reluctantly attending in spite of his powerful desire to go rejoin his teenage friends and tell off-color jokes with them - he had earned his nickname after his father struck him across the pate one time too many for failing to pay attention to him - and he peered out across the hills at the approaching clan.  "Ooh, they've got cool stuff to steal off their murdered bodies, it looks like.  Real shiny-like, all in their hands!"  He grinned, showing several gaps where his father had knocked out his teeth for showing insufficient enthusiasm for his brilliant schemes.  "I wonder which clan they are," he mused.

"Who cares?" his father answered.  "Descend upon them, all of you, and shout your battle-cry!"

As it happened, the father might have done better to pay closer attention to his son - or to his son's question at least.



The clan approaching up the hills was in fact the Zalitai Ir, and the shiny things that Gorgorgus had noticed in their hands were the deadly axes, shaped from Borte bronze and lovingly cared for by generations of Zalitai Ir warriors, in whose use as deadly weapons the entire clan had been training constantly.  There was indeed a slaughter, just as the chieftain had predicted.  The hills indeed ran red with blood.  Then Clan Zalitai Ir returned to Chubei, little the worse for wear.  There had been some little concern when the invading tribe had first been spotted in the jungles east of East Banana Lake, years before, that they might be able to do some damage while the bulk of the Khatunate's forces were tied up by the Zulu war - but just as the invaders made their appearance in the hills, the brave bhikkhunī sent alone into Zulu lands to treat with their Tokugawa had returned, a smile of triumph on her face, reporting that the Zulu leader himself was equally pleased:  They had sworn together to end all hostilities between their peoples, and made a pact with the holy spirits themselves to observe the peace for four hundred years at the least.  It seemed a promise more symbolic than meaningful, spanning so impossible a period, but for peoples who revered an Eternal Empress and an Undying Tokugawa, guided by holy spirits and driven by the enigmatic d'tay, it was a symbol of significance - and if their peoples held to the promise of their legends, perhaps still more.

Image credits:

Mongolian Miner:  Alvaro Laiz and David Rengel/TransterraMedia
Primitive Warriors:  Hanna Barbera, Korg 70000 BC
Mongolian Mining Camp: Alvaro Laiz and David Rengel/TransterraMedia
Mongolian Family with Cattle:  Evan Dickson for Get Lost Magazine
Primitive Warriors:  BBC, from the series "Walking with Cavemen"
Axeman Costume:  Sébastien Bergeron