[SPOILERS - El Grillo & Charriu PB51] One step at a time

[El Grillo]

T38:

Amicalola needing a sub made this last turn a bit awkward. Miguelito and I were last to play, so I waited until after he had ended turn, then played my turn and rolled T39. At this point I wasn't sure how to proceed, checked the Pitboss etiquette thread, and decided to just leave all my units un-moved and log off. As I understand it, I'm allowed to do this (but it's not encouraged and falls afoul of rule 1), wait for them to play the current turn T39, then inform them that I've declared war and taken the second half of the timer? Unfortunately this might be too on the nose and let everyone guess that I'm attacking Amicalola, but with them playing last and me normally playing the turn ASAP, it's hard to avoid giving that perception...

In-game, nothing unexpected happened and I didn't run into any barbarians while moving the WCs up. Amicalola grew to size 4 on T37, finished Hunting T38 a turn earlier than I had penciled in my notes, and is building more Quechuas.

[Charriu]

Well that's unfortunate, but you acted according to etiquette.

[El Grillo]

I suppose the only material risk this introduces is that Amicalola and Miguelito themselves realize what I'm up to and adjust their decisions this turn accordingly when they otherwise might not have. All things considered it's not a big deal if they do, if I'm interpreting the demos and graphs correctly there's no way they can have 3 Quechuas in their second city, there's no way for it to be able to whip a defender before the attack, and if they want to chop or whip out more military from the capital the only thing they can produce is more Quechuas, and that's constrained by only having the one production queue. So it's not as bad as if this were later in the game when they could actually whip out a bunch more defenders and move zone defense stacks.

I am slightly concerned about them finishing Hunting one turn before I had expected, though it's easy to imagine how my calculations could've been off. It's then 7-8 turns of combined gold-saving and research to Archery, which means we could face a defending Archer at the capital after all on t46. Well, it'd be asking too much for this campaign to be exclusively WC vs Quechua. Hopefully we can have enough healthy and promo-ready WCs at that point to finish things before he can build too many more.

EDIT: Also, for any curious lurkers out there here's the Google sheet I've been using to keep track of score changes and the latest micro while I play the turn.

[El Grillo]

T39: Declaration of War

As planned, our western pair of WCs approached the city of Gooch Mtn this turn and declared war just outside its borders. I sent the following PM to Amicalola, our ded-lurkers, and the Incan sub Miguelito:

Hello Amicalola, ded-lurkers, and Miguelito,

I write to inform you that we are at war as of T39. I will be claiming the second half of the turn, per the Pitboss etiquette rules surrounding wartime turn splits described here.

I would like to propose that we each be able to log in outside of our turn split to look around, take screenshots, and plan, but not make any moves in-game. If you object, then I will wait for you to play the turn and only log in afterward.

Take care,
El Grillo

I would have liked to put in a line to the effect of "I regret that we could not have co-existed peacefully, perhaps another time in another game" but that wouldn't be in the spirit of AI diplo. That being said, if all goes to plan, then Amicalola will be eliminated within ten turns. No mercy in-game.

To that end, the capital produced the 3rd WC this turn and will finish the 4th at end of turn with a chop. I don't have visibility on what's actually in Gooch Mtn yet, so I didn't take a screenshot of that area, but I'm betting that it's 2 Quechuas, one with fortify and one without. The sims say that's about 75% to win both rolls and raze the city, and we take those odds.







I forgot to check the culture graphs for a few turns but it certainly looks like a Monument in the capital. That makes turn 46/47 especially crucial since we want to hit the defenders before the extra 20% defensive bonus comes online along with Archers coming into play.



EDIT:

vanrober finally settled on T40, so now we have the second-city timings for all 10 of us:

[Suite]

I would like to propose that we each be able to log in outside of our turn split to look around, take screenshots, and plan, but not make any moves in-game. If you object, then I will wait for you to play the turn and only log in afterward.

Take care,
El Grillo

I think you know all of the following, but here it goes anyways: While I can understand your intention behind this proposal, it would be a drastic advantage for you as the second mover. Or does RB usually allow this? All the information you get in "his" turn half can be used to make more refined decisions (f.e. you see which units are produced in his cities before he has a chance to move them around - this is one of the aspects of moving first (and promotion healing) opposed to whipping timely/"safely" and allocate tiles without problems) whereas Amicalola can't react as such. You should stick both to the clean, sequential play...and what is more exciting than logging into the game while in wartime, not knowing what to expect?

[El Grillo]

Hello Suite, I recognize your username from civforum.de. I offered the proposal based on the discussion in the Pitboss etiquette thread I linked. This is my first time as the main turnplayer in a Pitboss (had previously played sequential PBEM and been a minor turnplayer in a team PB) so I'm mainly going by what seems to be precedent in this case, which seems to be proposing the bit about logging in out-of-sequence, and then abiding by whatever the declared-upon party wants.

I agree that there would likely be greater benefit to me, for example, looking at everything immediately when the turn rolls, than there would be for Amicalola seeing my moves and planning/discussing with his ded-lurker before his actual playing window. The benefit would be greater later in the game with more passive visibility from espionage and sentry-promoted units. If I am later declared upon and offered that provision while holding the first half of the timer, I would likely turn it down. There seems to be precedent both for offering and for refusing, so I think the attitude here is that it's more of a matter of occasional convenience to log in out-of-sequence than a lever to be pulled every turn.

EDIT:

Here is Amicalola's response:

I do not object, but . 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHmmjnEdtx8
Thanks for letting us know.

The link is to an unavailable video titled 'Why can't we be friends?' I was almost half-hoping it would be a Rick-Roll, but of course he's Australian. Is that joke even a thing outside of the United States?

[Charriu]

I have to agree with Suite. Looking back at past PBs I can't even remember when anybody proposed this. So it's definitely unusual, but not forbidden.

Every citizen of the internet knows rick-rolling as long as they speak English.

[El Grillo]

I took the idea directly from the linked etiquette thread from the OP of the tech thread.
https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...p?tid=7311

Rule #4 refers to asking for explicit permission to log in out-of-split, and posts #3-#6 all challenge it for not being even less restrictive. My takeaway from the discussion was that it would be okay if explicit permissions were mutually exchanged, and not if not.

Perhaps it's just that the posts I read there were from too long ago then, in 2015. The points of etiquette could certainly have changed since then, since many of the posters in that thread are no longer active.

[Charriu]

No it's ok and legit. It's just that nobody asked for this in a long time.

[El Grillo]

Well, I agree upon reflection that it’s fairer to ask both parties to stick strictly to their half of the turn split (though there is the corner case where airship reconnaissance granting persistent vision favors the first-half player logging back in), and in cases like the current where the second-half player rolls the turn, to then log off immediately without trying to look at anything. I will ask any future opponents to do so while at war, regardless of if I’m going first or second.

EDIT: Amicalola must think we’re having such a thorough discussion about the invasion In fact there’s nothing at all to talk about on that front until next turn.