(December 11th, 2013, 08:44)Fintourist Wrote: - The worker between Gallipoli & Peterloo. Couple of options:
a) chop the nearby forest into Gallipoli and mine it afterwards
b) pre-chop that forest and move next turn (or in 2 turns) onto the jungle N of Peterloo
c) improve tiles for Königgratz
I'm fine with all those 3 options so I demand you to think about it for 5 secs and then make a decision
I'm guessing CS is four turns away, but it could be five or six, in which case option b sounds good. I was also wondering how we get irrigation chained up to Agincourt effectively, none of our workers are doing anything near enough to the tile that needs the first farm unless we get construction first, delaying things further...
I think we want to finish Construction with overflow next turn enabling Jamestown 1-turn catapults if we desire (I put research on 100 %, but that's not so important). Consequently my guesstimate is CS eot144, but that is not based on any calculations, could be t143.
The workers that are currently hanging around Hastings & LB and the one improving wines will help. The worker flow won't be the most efficient, but I think we can accept couple of wasted worker turns.
About Ichabod
Quote:If he kicks us out then that also gives us information...
Yeah, let's do it.
Quote:I'd like to know what's on the gems tile, and don't like the risk of leaving our chariot in or near his land when we know he has a lot of workers around to combat road.
In the first half of T140 I think we definitely want to declare and move inside suttree's borders with our sentry chariot. If he has his units in attacking distance we want to be able to change builds, whip units etc still during our half. If that info costs us a chariot... Well.. I think we could live with that.
About Hastings
Quote:In which case a horse archer is our best bet - either to mop up injured catapults or to pre-scratch them and allow us to win more fights.
Yeah, I think putting hammers into HA is a solid option.
Quote:You haven't looked at the spreadsheet since yesterday have you I've got it marked on to work four specialists the last couple of turns, but I'd be happier to work them sooner on the precautionary principle.
Ha! I was pretty sure that you had also looked into this. Have you already sketched how our GP production during the GA will be? I've been thinking about it lately and I could not find in the spreadsheet yet.. Is the order:
- GS in A (~eot149)
- GS in O (~eot151)
- GM in C (later)
- GS in O (later)
?
I think starting next turn despite running specialists I would like to start growing some food buffer for Cannae so that we can run 6, maybe even 7 specialists there when in Pacifism. Getting the food box about half full is already decent though so no need to do anything too radical, just some growth during the next 5 turns by working 2x sugar and fish.
Quote:I can't decide if that's good or bad news... I don't like our neighbour being among the first to start drafting, but I think he's two golden ages ahead of us and that doesn't seem like a lot to show for it.
Yeah, it does not really look that grim and currently dtay really has no military techs so in that sense he could also be a realistic target.. Well we have our own economic play coming so a lot can still happen before the time comes..
(December 11th, 2013, 11:17)BRickAstley Wrote: So did I miss it, did you make a decision on your long term plans at this point?
Nope, you did not miss it :P Currently I think Harry is most keen on going all in with an attack towards mackoti (with the logic that only small improvements are not going to be enough etc.) while I'm trying to convince myself that taking out suttree and the island area from TBS/Jowy is a more sensible approach.. We need to decide the target within 5-10 turns though.. Otherwise we won't be effective.
Anyways, the big picture situation is:
- We hope that we can still improve our economic situation (build infra etc) during the next 8 turns.
- We produce a great person eot145
- We start a GA switch into Pacifism+Caste on T146 and stay there for 5-6 turns producing couple of additional great persons.
- We will get the ability to produce maces and knights during our GA and start a military build-up.
- In 25 turns we ruin someone's day with 50 knights. (roughly... )
On golden age mechanics:
(you'll need to check my maths)
Agincourt is +13 food - I think it can run 6.5 specialists at break-even food - 7.5 when irrigation is chained. Then with 40 food in the bank on t146 it could run 20/8 = 2.5 extra specialists for the eight turns. That would be: 10*3*3 = 90 GPP per turn = 720 during the GA It's already got 105 GPP so it can make it to 800
Cannae is +9 food so can run 4.5 specs at b/e, if it has 30 food in the box it could run 15/8 = one extra spec. 5.5*3*3 = 49.5 GPP per turn = 396 during the GA
Jamestown is +10 food so 5 specs at b/e if we build a farm, but we may want to work the mines for the GA production bonus instead. +1.5 specs for full food box. Anyway: 6.5*3*3 = 58.5 GPP per turn = 468 during the GA
Konig is +10 food so 5 specs at b/e if we can get it to size 8. With a full box that gives us about 1.5 extra specs: 6.5*3*3 = 58.5 GPP per turn = 468 during the GA
Omdurman with the National Epic is +10 food (with farms) so 5 specs at size 9 and a full food box gives 1.5 extra: 6.5*3*4 = 78 GPP per turn = 624 during the GA
So with those raw numbers it looks like: eot148 - Agincourt hits 300
eot151 - Omdurman hits 400
eot153 - Agincourt hits 500
Leaving Cannae with 396 invested
Jamestown with 360 invested
Konig with 460 invested
Om with 224 invested
We might be able to fiddle with Konig, OM and Agincourt so that: eot148 - Agincourt hits 300
eot151 or 152 - Konig hits 400
eot153 - Agincourt hits 500 and Om hits 600
Leaving Cannae with 396 invested
Jamestown with 360 invested
Then we think about whether we want those great people points in the other cities and which cities will produce for our second GA (presumably long enough after the first to allow the food boxes to recover).
Hey, I like your calculations! Thanks for laying out our options. Here's some quick feedback!
- I had not thought about Konig at all, nice idea!
- Math: Jamestown and Omdu have epics that increase their raw GPP production a bit.
- I don't think that we want to generate a GP in Jamestown. During the GA we already want to make most out of our HE and pump out units (I think)
- Agi has indeed a nice food surplus and can run many specs, but I'm wondering if we want to stay in Pacifism for more than 5/6 turns and thus get more than 1 GP out of our capital. Switching to Bureaucracy and working its GA-boosted tiles does not sound terrible either
Hmm.. Here is 1 scenario that could make sense and should be doable: EOT149: Omdu reaches 300 GPP (Merchant) for 2nd GA EOT151: Agincourt reaches 400 GPP (Scientist) for Academy or bulb(Edu?) EOT160-165: Omdu reaches 500 GPP (Scientist) for 2nd GA During the 2nd GA: Cannae reaches 600 GPP (Scientist) [i]for bulb(PP?)/i] Later in the game if still alive: Omdu reaches 700 GPP
The thing is that keeping GPPs in reserve in both König and Cannae does not sound too efficient and if we pump a 2nd GP out of Agincourt it will also be really hard for those cities to ever reach the necessary threshold (700/800 GPP). At that point the (opportunity) costs already start to get bigger than the actual benefit. The logic is here that the 2nd GA will be launched somewhat after our amazingly successful warfare and it helps us in catching up teams that got big land areas with smaller effort..
So yeah, I'm a bit less ambitious with these plans & timings. I agree that while we are using Pacifism it would be nice to run specs in more than 3 cities, but I'm not sure that it brings us real benefits. What do you think, what are my major flaws?
Okay, I finished off the turn. I did worker action b) and it turned out that that forest had already been pre-chopped so Galipoli now has 62 hammers into its forge.
Hastings starts the Horse Archer. I agree with your chariot move for t140 (lurkers will have to wait in agonised anticipation as to what this means, sorry).
Its looking like Koniggratz might be one of our best golden age GPP producers, so lets set it to max growth from next turn. I think it can get to size 8 by t146, but we really need it to be size 9. Preliminary spreadsheet run-through has it starving t152 to produce the Great Person at size 8, we could give it the food this turn but that stops Peterloo and Gallipoli growing and I'm not certain about any of this yet. All this means however that the workshops I was happily building will be useless for ages and that guy should go help build the cottage.
While I was logged in TBS moved his chariot away from our worker chopping at Jamestown. That seems like a friendly gesture...
We get graphs on plako next turn, who do we want to spy on after that? Pindicooter are the only folks we've met and are in the running that we don't have graphs for. Suttree could have his espionage costs raised. YM and dtay are both our rivals...
Finally we could cancel our spices-silver deal with Pindicooter (we're also getting spice from Dhal now) and offer silver for wheat and stone instead? Or we could offer Azza wheat for sugar?
(December 11th, 2013, 13:55)Fintourist Wrote: - I don't think that we want to generate a GP in Jamestown. During the GA we already want to make most out of our HE and pump out units (I think)
Agreed
(December 11th, 2013, 13:55)Fintourist Wrote: - Agi has indeed a nice food surplus and can run many specs, but I'm wondering if we want to stay in Pacifism for more than 5/6 turns and thus get more than 1 GP out of our capital. Switching to Bureaucracy and working its GA-boosted tiles does not sound terrible either
Hmm.. Here is 1 scenario that could make sense and should be doable: EOT149: Omdu reaches 300 GPP (Merchant) for 2nd GA EOT151: Agincourt reaches 400 GPP (Scientist) for Academy or bulb(Edu?) EOT160-165: Omdu reaches 500 GPP (Scientist) for 2nd GA During the 2nd GA: Cannae reaches 600 GPP (Scientist) [i]for bulb(PP?)/i] Later in the game if still alive: Omdu reaches 700 GPP
The thing is that keeping GPPs in reserve in both König and Cannae does not sound too efficient and if we pump a 2nd GP out of Agincourt it will also be really hard for those cities to ever reach the necessary threshold (700/800 GPP). At that point the (opportunity) costs already start to get bigger than the actual benefit. The logic is here that the 2nd GA will be launched somewhat after our amazingly successful warfare and it helps us in catching up teams that got big land areas with smaller effort..
So yeah, I'm a bit less ambitious with these plans & timings. I agree that while we are using Pacifism it would be nice to run specs in more than 3 cities, but I'm not sure that it brings us real benefits. What do you think, what are my major flaws?
In my second run Konig gets up to 400 and stops, we can run GPPs in Cannae too, to convert in the second golden age, but the three important cities are A, K and O.
K is a one-shot city, not that useful for later GPs. It feels more efficient for A to produce 800 points and get the 300 and 500 GPs, than for it just to do 400 points and leave all the heavy lifting to O. In your version O will have about 200 GPP left after the GA that my version doesn't, so I'm going to be some distance slower to produce the next GP and it makes more sense to hold onto two of the ones we generate for the next golden age. Allowing us to be flexible about when that is but not really spending them very quick.
If we switch out of pacifism but keep caste system then Suttree gets to attack us when we don't have slavery and can't revolt for five turns (although hopefully not a problem by then). I'd rather make all the civic changes together after 8 turns than half after 5 and the rest at 10.
Essentially I like my plan, it gets us more great people quicker. And something about snowballs.
- Btw, I was suggesting that we spend 6 turns in Pacifism and then we already switch out of caste and paficism back to slavery (and OR). So it's more like a "quick Pacifism run" approach in order to grab low-hanging fruits (cheapest GPs) while continuing development and preparing for war.
- Getting ~680 GPP out of Agincourt in 8 turns is a really rough exercise. Actually it requires 75 specialist turns (so 3x 10 specialists and 5x 9 specialists). Assuming that we are at size 14 and work our 3 food resources, specialists and rest food neutral tiles and we don't have health issues: running 10 specialists means that we burn 7 food and running 9 specialists means that we are burning 5 food. So overall we are burning 46 food during those 8 turns, which means that we need to start the operation with 47/48 food in the box. So it's doable, but it's very tight. I'm not quite sure if I like this approach
- I think getting a GP out of König is interesting and I don't have a problem with investigating more of that possibility. I can imagine the city also pumping out lot of hammers during the GA, but GP-push also makes sense.
- Overall I'm not convinved about the benefit of the 1 extra GP if it means that we need to stay longer in Pacifism and it means that we are not getting hammers out of Agincourt and König. So yeah, beakerwise 1 extra GS is a nice thing, but it is questionable whether it serves our goals. So does earlier Education give anything concrete for us while our focus should be in acquiring more land from someone.
- That said, I'm not satisfied with my previous suggestion either so I think I want to still continue head-scratching and I try to come up with some kind of a compromise :P
I was pretty sure that you had also looked into this. Have you already sketched how our GP production during the GA will be? I've been thinking about it lately and I could not find in the spreadsheet yet.. 
Is the order:I've got it marked on to work four specialists the last couple of turns, but I'd be happier to work them sooner on the precautionary principle.
(roughly... 
)
Thanks for laying out our options. Here's some quick feedback!
