[PB59] Charriu welcomes all the townfolk

[Charriu]

T21:

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After healing back to 0.7 health I started exploring again, but so far nothing interesting to show other then the jungle isn't that thick.

I had prepared two plans for the upcoming turns. The main difference between these are that one gives me the settler one turn earlier (T30) at the cost of a forest and one less improvement build. After looking into it some more I decided to go with the plan that saves the forest and generates the settler later (T31). The main reason for that is, that I plan to settle the red dot to my west as my second city. The problem there is that by the time the city is settled (T32) the wheat isn't improved yet. The only advantage I would get from settling one turn earlier (T31) is that the new city gets 3 more food from working a 3 food tile for 1 turn more. But settling the city later let's it grow at just the same time, while also providing an improved tile (river mine) for the city to work until the wheat is connected. I rather would like to work improved tiles in that case.

[Coeurva]

If you follow the "5h = 3f = 8c early" calculus (I last saw OH bring it up in the pb57 thread), the grass mine's 1f3h is worth 2.8f, which is worse than unimproved wheat. IMHO filling the food box is more likely to pay off, even if there's no immediate payoff for the first size2 growth; mines are generally rather bad in BtS and more so with all these luxes available to us early. If, for example, we want a granary somewhere, the plan is probably to 2-whip an axe / spear at 4/35h and OF into a granary for 1t (at least 30h will come in), swapping build to axe/spear again (minimal hammers, maximal food) and "overclock" (i.e. using "surplus happiness") whipping the granary at its optimal storage value (or maybe 29h/60 granary 2-whip is better, probably demands case-by-case decisions; "don't ask me, I'm not playing this game"). Same goes for workers, put 1t of 29h or less OF from axe/spear into them, go to some other item regrowing, 2-whip it later pushing the OF forward, or invest 30+ and 1-whip next turn if you need that worker now -- I think we'll need to do that for Oracle.

Point is that mines don't help with this because we don't want to slowbuild foodhammer units to 1-whip etc. when the 2-whip is worth 60h. We want to whip Phallic Warriors heavily with 2 luxes and bridge hitting the cap with settler partial builds. Then whip even more with forges. I'm starting to agree that the Oracle target should be MC, btw, even if it "leaves SPI blank", just because we must not miss Colossus. SPI can shine later.

I might be wildly off base with this. Including on whether CtH actually has "BtS-style" 60h 2-whips, because if it's 50h like in RtR, we do want more mines. Also, saving the forest might be good play for IND anyway, particularly if it would have to be one that would overlap with Oracle City. This is more "general advice" about avoiding mines (though not completely; it's good if a city's configuration gets some important item to its >2-whip threshold earlier with a mine), I'm fine with the 1t delay plan (and not going to bother with specific micro in this game)

Maybe the mine will pop silver again!

[Charriu]

Well if we are only looking at "5h = 3f = 8c early" then a mine on a river like the one I was talking about is worth more then a pure 3/0/0 tile. It would be 3.175 food. All of what you said is true, but the important fact for me is how many improved tiles every city has. Under the early settler plan, we have this when the third city is settle around (T44)

Capitol: 3 improved tiles (ivory, deer, fish)
Second: 3 improved tiles (wheat, river mine, pigs)

But keep in mind the the third city will use the pig for growth immediately. Now with the later city plan we have the following:

Capitol: 4 improved tiles (ivory, deer, fish, river mine)
Second: 3 improved tiles (wheat, mine, pigs)

But keep in mind the the third city will use the pig for growth immediately. The idea for the mines is not to work them while growing, but rather to grow to size 4 in the cap, let the 4th pop work the mine while building the settler or worker and then whip away. While building one of these the river mine is just as good as a 4 food tile. I think this is what you mean with "it's good if a city's configuration gets some important item to its >2-whip threshold earlier with a mine". Also you are not bothering me with specific micro.

CtH has the "BtS-style" 60h 2-whips.

[Coeurva]

Well if we are only looking at "5h = 3f = 8c early" then a mine on a river like the one I was talking about is worth more then a pure 3/0/0 tile. It would be 3.175 food.

Right, the wheat is plains ( ) and I didn't even check. I still think that the 3/0/0 pig is better than 1/3/1 (for 1t) because the 2f is more likely to complete a box later than the 3h1c if we're only looking at the margin; but I can't argue that from the "3/5/8 calculus" alone.

The idea for the mines is not to work them while growing, but rather to grow to size 4 in the cap, let the 4th pop work the mine while building the settler or worker and then whip away. While building one of these the river mine is just as good as a 4 food tile. I think this is what you mean with "it's good if a city's configuration gets some important item to its >2-whip threshold earlier with a mine".

No, what I mean is that slowbuilding workers and 1-whipping them is (imo) generally a terrible idea in BtS (with settlers it's more defensible to work mines for 1-2t since they need considerable OF to 2-whip... unless IMP; but by the point that the mine is the best tile to work; even then, the margin is so small that it's not with high frequency that the mine's extra 1fh will speed up the settler) and you should nearly always aim to OF 2-whips into foodhammer units instead. Improved tiles don't come for free, we're going to whip off the mine which is actually worse than whippping off a 2/1/0 unimproved forest -- again not by the 3/5/8 calculus alone, but surely a complete calculus should include worker labor alternative costs; if that's not convincing: the chop is like adding 20h to the unimproved tile we'd work instead of the mine (2/1/0, I guess), rather than just 1t of 0/20/0 vs. x turns of 1/3/1. I think that makes the mine dubious, even if early chops also have an alternative cost. But I don't think we particularly need any wonders after Colossus, and for hitting Colossus (with or without Oracle, though I'm sure hoping with) we need workers workers workers

I've also remembered that we can't partial-farm a pure grassland instead because we went BW before Agri (right?). So I advocate for the chop after all (hope there's still time), because I don't see us working 7t of that mine any time soon and that's the only other thing to do for the worker. There will be other forests.

Also you are not bothering me with specific micro.

Bother myself, not bother you -- I'm being lazy, not polite.

But keep in mind the the third city will use the pig for growth immediately.

Uh, yeah. But city #2 will double-whip a worker and then work wheat/crab and grow onto tiles that are hopefully not mines, because mines that get whipped off are too low in margin to repay the cost of laying them (early). They must be worked continuously to do that, imho.

I'm exaggerating slightly -- maybe my point should have been "mines are good if you have surplus worker labor" and they *will* be good for getting forges (less so for running them, though it's still some extra peanuts, but the meat is the whip boost and thus farms (as regrowth tiles only) should still be preferred), which is one of those "push into whip range" cases. But generally, I'd rather skimp on mines for a while if that gives us more workers for laying down river cottages later. RtR is a different beast because 50h 2-whips change the calculus completely: now it's the 2-whip that's generally inefficient (obviously, the 2nd pop is not doing as much as it could), and you want to 1-whip more, which requires more mines. Of course, two 1-whips costing two happiness makes this more nuanced yet.

[Coeurva]

In the end I'm just talking personal heuristics and beliefs, and not even looking at the specific case and what the micro permits. If your sandbox shows that the mine is contributing something specific (that placing it later couldn't do), please build the mine.

[Charriu]

The idea for the mines is not to work them while growing, but rather to grow to size 4 in the cap, let the 4th pop work the mine while building the settler or worker and then whip away. While building one of these the river mine is just as good as a 4 food tile. I think this is what you mean with "it's good if a city's configuration gets some important item to its >2-whip threshold earlier with a mine".

No, what I mean is that slowbuilding workers and 1-whipping them is (imo) generally a terrible idea in BtS (with settlers it's more defensible to work mines for 1-2t since they need considerable OF to 2-whip... unless IMP; but by the point that the mine is the best tile to work; even then, the margin is so small that it's not with high frequency that the mine's extra 1fh will speed up the settler) and you should nearly always aim to OF 2-whips into foodhammer units instead. Improved tiles don't come for free, we're going to whip off the mine which is actually worse than whippping off a 2/1/0 unimproved forest -- again not by the 3/5/8 calculus alone, but surely a complete calculus should include worker labor alternative costs; if that's not convincing: the chop is like adding 20h to the unimproved tile we'd work instead of the mine (2/1/0, I guess), rather than just 1t of 0/20/0 vs. x turns of 1/3/1. I think that makes the mine dubious.

I've also remembered that we can't partial-farm a pure grassland instead because we went BW before Agri (right?). So I advocate for the chop after all (hope there's still time), because I don't see us working 7t of that mine any time soon and that's the only other thing to do for the worker. There will be other forests.

There's still a little bit of time. I would have to move to the forest at T24. I will think about what you said some more. Another important thing to mention in all of this is that even if I go for Pottery after Agriculture then Pottery will only be done sometime after T50, so until then there aren't that many tiles to improve by the worker.

But keep in mind the the third city will use the pig for growth immediately.

Uh, yeah. But city #2 will double-whip a worker and then work wheat/crab and grow onto tiles that are hopefully not mines, because mines that get whipped off are too low in margin to repay the cost of laying them (early). They must be worked continuously to do that, imho.

I'm exaggerating slightly -- maybe my point should have been "mines are good if you have surplus worker labor" and they *will* be good for getting forges (less so for running them, though it's still some extra peanuts, but the meat is the whip boost and thus farms should still be preferred), which is one of those "push into whip range" cases. But generally, I'd rather skimp on mines for a while if that gives us more workers for laying down river cottages later. RtR is a different beast because 50h 2-whips change the calculus completely: now it's the 2-whip that's generally inefficient (obviously, the 2nd pop is not doing as much as it could), and you want to 1-whip more, which requires more mines. Of course, two 1-whips costing two happiness makes this more nuanced yet.

Don't forget that I plan to settle #2 1W of wheat. In order to work the crab, we need a border pop.

[Coeurva]

I've given roughly 5 seconds of thought to that comment about city #2 and I will forget what civ and leader we're playing 5 times before this is over. Might be good to 1-whip a monument, because increasing crop yield is what justifies 1-whips. Or perhaps skipping the filler dot in the west is for the better -- I don't think the monument is that much of a pain, though.

If we go for Pottery before Priesthood, I think we are going to miss the Oracle (I think it will fall ~T60), the price of Oracle is precisely that the burst tech comes at the expense of cottage development (unless everyone else also delays the Oracle, at which point the damn thing can jump in character from "strategic stepping-stone" to "I accidentally the game", but at 25 players with one going Med first?) and I expect some players to grab gold (or silver/gems; whatever location of theirs is equivalent to our #3) with #2 in a Poly/Monotheism push. But we have lots of tiles to farm and Colossus would certainly make up for lost worker labor (edit: I mean alternatively, by farming instead of cottaging) and commerce alike, allowing us to bridge the gap of later cottages. We just need to get the thing ofc

"cute historical Antiquity mod idea: building Colossus requires not a forge, but for the city to have been bombarded by enemy siege at least once"

[Charriu]

I agree that the monument isn't that much of a pain, but we need Mysticism for that first.

If we want to Oracle MC, we need Wheel and Pottery before completing the Oracle (Pottery is a pre-req to MC). You might be correct about Oracle at T60, but in that case we never had a chance of landing it in the first place. That's because of the higher tech cost at Huge and Emperor. As an comparison, we finish

Mining->BW->Agriculture->AH->Wheel->Pottery

barely after T50.
Back in my last PB52, I managed to land these techs

Mining->BW->Fishing->AH->Wheel->Pottery->Masonry

at T46. This game runs on a much slower clock.

[Coeurva]

Duly noted. I do have no feel for the tech costs in this game, it seems. They're higher across the board at least, though people who skip Hunting might indeed have enough of a research advantage to offset our IND. The Med-first techer worries me most, of course (especially if it's Spain, who can also skip Hunting, and seeing as DZ has built Oracle early before -- as in, ~T45 in pb42). Maybe SPI/IND should have rerolled Hunting civs categorically -- but no use mulling over that now, we'll manage. At least Amica as the sole other IND also had a Hunting start.

So, new proposal: What about Oracling CoL (reqs Writing ofc but with AH+Priest prereqs and at 20b less (unless CtH changes costs around; correct me), that should be considerably faster than Wheel->Pottery) with a contingency plan of using it for Masonry/MC-path failgold (and, in that case, a shot at chopping Mids at #3 by settling stone as #4)? CoL more for the near-assured Confu + OrgRel than Caste, even. We would then scrap the GEng plan, grow tall on luxes with fewer whips, get scientists as whipoff tiles for the MC push / cottage alternative / first GP, and try to build Colossus via chop instead (with OrgRel + almost-monopoly IND, who can beat that even if they're some 10t faster to MC? -- sure hope IND/ORG Amica is going for the "telegraphed" GLH, of course, since he has a good incentive to push for Oracle CoL as well, perhaps even banking on us anticipating GLH from him instead).

Also important: If we move sheep city 1N, it's a plains hill centre production city with another amazing 8 forests, all we need is some worker coordination and we could realistically 1t forge, 1t Col (wouldn't mind 2t or 3t). That site invalidates Violet Stronghold, but I think moving that 1N to flatland would be an acceptable tradeoff for getting Colossus. I don't see a better Colossus site in our territory, at any rate, and it's a good early city (#5?) as well.

Another thing: We might not be able to Oracle MC due to tech costs and someone else preferring not-MC, but we can tech Priesthood and let the thing sit in the queue just shy of completion, teching the MC prereqs, if we really don't want any Oracle target besides MC. That way we're still getting failgold and might well be second-fastest to MC, and I think we will still beat non-IND to the Colossus that way, which is ofc the true target.

And a silver lining: the Oracle falling early, even if not to us, would be good for our Colossus chances, since it means nobody will Oracle MC. Really I want to pursue the thing not least to ensure that Oracle MC doesn't happen in this game unless it's us.

[Coeurva]

Will be unavailable until April 3.