Ranamar and Lewwyn, ministers for Bismarck of Mali

[Lewwyn]

Yuris just got Buddhism last turn. Our next tech is Poly followed by priest. Is Yuris going to go for Oracle? If he does can we beat him? Poly will take us 5 turns at 100% at -2gpt. It takes 5 at 90% and -1gpt. I say we go 50% for one turn to get +6 gpt and then back to 90%. We should be able to at least get hinduism while chasing the Oracle. The question really is can yuris and maestro get pottery faster than us. They can't get MC unless they have pottery as well.

They started with Wheel and Agriculture. They will need BW and forest chopping to beat us in building the oracle. They already spent some time getting Myst and meditation. Did they have time to tech AH, Mining and BW as well? We had to tech AH, Agr, BW, Myst and Fishing. Now they need priesthood and pottery and to build the damn thing... Yeah I don't think we can beat em.

We will finish Stonehenge this turn though. So that's something. Haven't played the turn yet. Do we abandon The Oracle plan get Sailing, masonry and TGLH? If we go Poly I'm almost 100% we will get hinduism because no one else is gonna be chasing religion...

[Ranamar]

I did a bit more dotmapping work with the suggestion of planting on the other desert hill, too.



Dotmapping this blob sucks. I seem to have managed to waste 5 tiles (although two of them are desert hills) and I'm not sure how to move things around to fix that.

I seem to have squeezed the northeastern orange dot off the end of the map with my proposed move for the yellow one, which I put in so we could actually use all of the riverside tiles. Well, between that, and dark blue which means that the only resource uniquely available to that one is the whale in the corner there... and purple, which I'd previously considered a sucky filler city, is a better city that get whales, now.
(Of course, whales are a long way off, so we can probably safely ignore both of them.)

Pink dot isn't that pink in the grand tradition, but I was running out of colors.
It's also probably got the most water now, if we get rid of NE orange, although its real purpose is to block off the northern approach.

... and I'm not sure what to think of dark orange. It gets a pile of resources, but almost no land other than that to itself and might even need a farm or two to feed all of the production/commerce resources it'd be working.

[Ranamar]

Yuris just got Buddhism last turn. Our next tech is Poly followed by priest. Is Yuris going to go for Oracle? If he does can we beat him? Poly will take us 5 turns at 100% at -2gpt. It takes 5 at 90% and -1gpt. I say we go 50% for one turn to get +6 gpt and then back to 90%. We should be able to at least get hinduism while chasing the Oracle. The question really is can yuris and maestro get pottery faster than us. They can't get MC unless they have pottery as well.

They started with Wheel and Agriculture. They will need BW and forest chopping to beat us in building the oracle. They already spent some time getting Myst and meditation. Did they have time to tech AH, Mining and BW as well? We had to tech AH, Agr, BW, Myst and Fishing. Now they need priesthood and pottery and to build the damn thing... Yeah I don't think we can beat em.

We will finish Stonehenge this turn though. So that's something. Haven't played the turn yet. Do we abandon The Oracle plan get Sailing, masonry and TGLH? If we go Poly I'm almost 100% we will get hinduism because no one else is gonna be chasing religion...

Unless they grew this turn, Yuris is still size 2. They'd basically need to do the entire thing by chopping. All of it, unless they somehow manage to quickly grow onto some good production tiles. On the other hand,

You seem to be advocating going for Polytheism and Hinduism anyway, but I might be misunderstanding. On the other hand, we're 3-5 turns behind them, and they probably have started teching faster than us by now. Perhaps it could be worth going back and doing the demographics more carefully to figure out what techs they must have?

Unfortunately, I spent all the time I could spend thinking about this playing around with dotmaps when I knew I had a save in my e-mail.
I think I'm going to sit on the save all day so that we can discuss this.

EDIT: I went and *looked* at the turn after all...
Stonehenge gets in EOT when the mine chop finishes. If we don't work the mine tile, though (don't need it to finish Stonehenge) and instead work a grass river tile, we get one extra commerce this turn and grow to size 5 this turn instead of next turn. (I should check what we're building next.) I suppose it doesn't do us too much good, given that our southern city (whose name I forgot just now) needs one more turn to grow and be whippable, so Barad-Dur won't get its sheep back for a couple turns.

[SevenSpirits]

Unless they grew this turn, Yuris is still size 2. They'd basically need to do the entire thing by chopping. All of it, unless they somehow manage to quickly grow onto some good production tiles. On the other hand,

You seem to be advocating going for Polytheism and Hinduism anyway, but I might be misunderstanding. On the other hand, we're 3-5 turns behind them, and they probably have started teching faster than us by now. Perhaps it could be worth going back and doing the demographics more carefully to figure out what techs they must have?

Unfortunately, I spent all the time I could spend thinking about this playing around with dotmaps when I knew I had a save in my e-mail.
I think I'm going to sit on the save all day so that we can discuss this.

EDIT: I went and *looked* at the turn after all...
Stonehenge gets in EOT when the mine chop finishes. If we don't work the mine tile, though (don't need it to finish Stonehenge) and instead work a grass river tile, we get one extra commerce this turn and grow to size 5 this turn instead of next turn. (I should check what we're building next.) I suppose it doesn't do us too much good, given that our southern city (whose name I forgot just now) needs one more turn to grow and be whippable, so Barad-Dur won't get its sheep back for a couple turns.

Being 1f from growing was not expected. We could remedy it by giving the sheep back and working a fish tile this turn though.

[Lewwyn]

I say start poly, set Tech rate to something low for a turn. Start a WB in Tirith. And move Samwise to the forest. Make sure Stonehenge finishes EOT if you micromanage to grow Barad to 5 this turn.

I'm off to bed soon so you guys can discuss today.

[SevenSpirits]

Played!

I worked a 2/1 forest. It would have been better to work that last turn and the mine this turn, instead of a 1/2 forest last turn and the 2/1 this turn, but this is better than not growing. Because we don't have anything to build that lets us grow for quite a while, now that stonehenge is in!

I started the workboat, which can be whipped next turn. I also queued up a settler behind Stonehenge. Pretty sure we want that next, then workers. Samwise, who finished a chop last turn got moved to the third NW forest to speed up the settler. Frodo meanwhile I think should get ready to connect the gems? Maybe road there until it's in culture, 5 turns from now.

Set research (now on Polytheism) to 50%. This is more efficient this turn than any other % given the 3 overflow from Fishing, and builds up some gold.

We will probably have to give up on the oracle. (Either GES or Yuris got Buddhism, I'm guessing Yuris, and we'll see soon enough.) Let's try to make a new plan without it. Note: Yuris is now size 3 and also has a 1-pop second city. So I guess he started growing after finishing the settler (probably after 2 workers) and will be able to build the Oracle no problem.

[SevenSpirits]

Had a chat with GES.

Most important:

What I wanted to ask is if you are trying for Polytheism?
Because I am already teching it

My reply:

oh, good question
we were thinking about it
but that was before buddhism landed and it seems pretty clear yuris wants oracle

Later, I ask:

do you think you're getting poly soon enough?
like, 2 turns from buddhism being founded?

Who knows, I may miss out. If so, I will probably get Mono. Monarchy is a good long term goal anyway.

When the conversation is over, I investigate. At last sight, GES had just gotten 6 points from a tech (probably myst of course), had not yet founded his second city, and had a 4 pop capital. The fact that he got his tech then means he has only put one turn into poly, just like us. But he put his in AFTER us!

His 4 pop capital, if it has no cottage on the FP yet, makes 1 (city tile) +1 (sheep) +3 (sheep) +1 (FP) + 8 palace = 14 commerce. His second city adds 2 but also subtracts 2 from maintenance. (Btw, he told me where it is.) IF he has 4 roads, it also gives 2 commerce in trade routes. Thus he has 14c, +2 if 4 roads, +2 if a cottage, potentially up to 20 really. But say ~16, most likely not much more or less over the next few turns on average. 16c translates into 20 beakers per turn when you count prereq bonus (+3) and free beaker (+1). Polytheism is 88b. Thus, if he has like 8b of overflow/saved gold, he may be able to get poly in 4 turns.

Meahwhile, we are producing 14c / turn. With the beaker and prereq bonus, that is 18bpt, enough to get Poly in 5 turns. In fact, since we will grow onto the fish, and have 4 total overflow+gold, we have about 12 beakers more than needed, but it's not enough to save a turn.

Summary: We are getting poly in 4 more turns. GES will get it either right before or right after we do. Crazy!

Three possible courses of action:
1) Switch research off poly, do something else.
2) Race him to poly silently.
3) Talk to GES about it -
a. Say we will get Poly in 3t. [This is false. It beats his best possible time.]
b. Say we will get Poly in 4t. [This is true. It may or may not be fast enough.]
c. Say we will beat him to Poly, don't specify a turn.
d. Say we or him will beat the other to Poly. Suggest we declare our turn and whoever will get it first gets it.

I prefer 3d. The one drawback of that is that it may cause him to focus more on commerce than previously, in order to upgrade his turn number.

[SevenSpirits]

Tried 3d with Ranamar's approval. Irritating result: GES says he doesn't care if he gets Hindu, he is teching poly anyway. And naturally he doesn't know when he'll get it either... he said he thinks t30 (good for us), but isn't sure. (For the same reason I'm not sure, no doubt.)

Then he had to go.

I suggested he might delay it intentionally if he's going to get there t29, but he had left so did not reply.

Full transcript:

10:15 PM me: here now
10:16 PM jtgoldsmith: I saw you guys built Henge
me: yes
jtgoldsmith: Did you found Buddhism too?
10:17 PM me: that was yuris
probably
jtgoldsmith: Ahh, have you met anyone else?
We still haven't
me: nope
jtgoldsmith: What I wanted to ask is if you are trying for Polytheism?
Because I am already teching it
10:18 PM me: oh, good question
we were thinking about it
but that was before buddhism landed and it seems pretty clear yuris wants oracle
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, I knew the early wonders would drop
given two IND civs
10:19 PM and another player who wanted IND
BTW, who am I speaking with?
Probalby 7
me: 7
haha
jtgoldsmith: I can tell your style by now'
Oh BTW, I just unfogged marble this tile
me: ah
where?
10:20 PM jtgoldsmith: So the one fogged tundra tile
south of my dyes
me: I don't know where your dyes are
jtgoldsmith: Umm, somewhere south of the pigs
10:21 PM not pigs
sorry
peaks near pigs, maybe 3S
or 4S
me: ok
jtgoldsmith: So if you do decide to go Oracle, if it would help, I can loan marble
10:22 PM NOt sure we will have a connection by then though
me: thanks, but I highly doubt you'll have marble and masonry and trade routes with us by the time yuris builds it
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, probably not
me: we would like to trade for marble though
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, as of right now, I have no wonder plans
I've decided to take a bit of a religious path
me: cool
jtgoldsmith: as Egypt, I can get a shrine or two up
10:23 PM and long term, the religious techs have good civics for a SPI civ
me: definitely
I love doing that
wheres your second city going?
it's a bit less obvious than our situation...
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, Caste gives you fake CRE. Pac gives your Phil. OR gives you fake forges.
10:24 PM me: yup
pretty cool
and then you can get vassalage/nationhood and 1/2 bureacracy too
jtgoldsmith: I was wondering why your screen didn't include your desert fish/gems city
Minas Tirith
me: I took the screenshots right when we arranged to trade them
10:25 PM which was that turn
jtgoldsmith: Guess where my second city is going
Or went
already founded now
me: hm
10:26 PM S of horse?
NW of pig?
jtgoldsmith: Second one I believe
plains hill near peaks
me: yeah
really nice spot, only drawback is not sharing a capital food
10:27 PM jtgoldsmith: Yeah, but I will need to share that capital food with some shitty coastal filler cities I think
since there is no seafood on that long straight coast
me: yeah that's bizarre
10:28 PM jtgoldsmith: I was pretty pissy about it
me: man we have a total of ONE river
so many fewer river tiles than you
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, but you got a six food tile start, and an extra two hammers from your first three tiles
When coupled with EXP, I have some catchup to do
me: our start is a little better than yours yeah
10:29 PM jtgoldsmith: He also put jungle on my gems
When I saw you didn't have jungle on your gems
me: we also needed fishing for city 2, hence why we lose oracle race
jtgoldsmith: I was grumpy
me: don't worry we have another gems that IS jungled
jtgoldsmith: that makes me feel SO much better
me: yeah
jtgoldsmith: do you have a tundra path?
10:30 PM me: it's strange, but apparently the mapmaker thought that rather than improve our shitty northern land, he should just give us one city in the south with a gems and 2 fish
we have a third path
haven't seen tundra yet though
just deserts for us
10:31 PM that is where our copper is btw
from our screenshot, you can see ONE tile on our blob we haven't revealed yet
copper, obviously
10:33 PM jtgoldsmith: So likely the map is a ring of islands and we each have some sort of spiral ala 17 into the middle?
10:34 PM me: yeah
looks that way
jtgoldsmith: You think the middle is crap land?
The four tiles I can see on mine are all tundra
me: I dunno
I'd guess the middle itself is good and just the paths there are bad
after all we haven't seen gold yet, for example
10:35 PM jtgoldsmith: True
10:36 PM So I would propose that we plan to aggressively push our other neighbors and basically leave each other be
If it is a ring of some sorts, we could basically work out in opposite directions
10:37 PM me: sounds good to me
jtgoldsmith: But I think between you having skirmishers and me having war chariots, I'd like to think we can avoid any dopey ancient era wars like have gone on in recent games
14 for example is awash in nonsense
me: good lord, yeah
10:38 PM neither of them beat the other offensively
of course, we could attack you with a bunch of spears to try to stop your copper\
10:39 PM let me run that past lewwyn
10:40 PM jtgoldsmith: Yeah, exactly
Run it past Tu-pac
me:
heh
10:41 PM however, I think there is something to be said for the fact that we have more potential to invade you than vice versa (we even have a city blocking the bridge), and exp for good early game
10:42 PM and you have the 2 best late game traits
meaning that I don't see why we'd want to guarantee you peace without something extra for it
10:44 PM jtgoldsmith: Well, you do what you want to do. If you want to start saber rattling, I can have some chariots out in 3-4 turns and we can have fun
me: sure
I don't want saber rattling personally
10:45 PM but I am about 99% sure that lewwyn and ranamar won't want to sign a longer nap for that reason, so just letting you know
jtgoldsmith: Seeing as how I know you don't have copper yet . . .

10:46 PM me: sh, that is a military secret
10:47 PM jtgoldsmith: I'm just saying. I'm about as a pleasant a dude to have as a neighbor as you can find at RB. But if it looks like we cannot be pleasant, then so be it.
me: I know
10:48 PM do you think you're getting poly soon enough?
like, 2 turns from buddhism being founded?
10:49 PM jtgoldsmith: Who knows, I may miss out. If so, I will probably get Mono. Monarchy is a good long term goal anyway.
me: true
10:51 PM jtgoldsmith: From there, I can pull a Krill and nab Fuedalism instead of Bureaucracy
Krill says Bureaucracy is only better if you are doing it wrong
me: with spi, you want both
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, alternating is definitely good
Save gold, then blow it
48 minutes
11:40 PM jtgoldsmith: You still there?
me: yeah
11:42 PM jtgoldsmith: So I am editing our chat to post in my thread, and it occurred to me. If I am never going to be more than 10 turns away from war with you guys, when wouldn't I cancel our NAP and just come your way now? You built 'Henge, likely have no archery, cannot get spears in 10 turns, and I can be on your doorstep when the NAP expires. How is that not a better option for me than worrying about psycho boy and his short NAPs?
11:44 PM me: we will have copper in a few turns
11:45 PM it's really hard to do anything on quick speed
archery is like a 3t tech
you have to attack into a city with cultural defense and can't even choke any tiles
causing your nearest opponent to build an ancient era army has proven repeatedly to be a very bad idea
11:47 PM jtgoldsmith: Agreed. Which is why I didn't particularly like the implication that I needed to give something up to get peace. The simple fact that I am as trustworthy as they come on RB oughta be worth something when it comes to picking who you want to agitate and who you don't.
11:48 PM The chances of ever getting Mackoti'd by me is pretty much nil.
me: yeah
look: same here
ranamar and I can keep lewwyn from going on the offensive too early
11:49 PM it;s more the pitbull revenge thing that may still occur
so I don't think you need to worry
11:51 PM jtgoldsmith: Alright, I am just a fairly black and white guy. You won't get a lot of flowery language and backstabbing bullshit from me. I'll take you at your word that you have no current plans.
me: yeah
we built stonehenge
however, about hinduism
I just talked with ranamar about this
we have also started it
11:52 PM I think we'll get it before you
but, racing is dumb
my preference would be for us each to declare when we'll get it, then the second place player doesn't research it and doesn't lose tempo
11:53 PM what do you think?
jtgoldsmith: Well, I am actually fine with missing it, because Monotheism is good for me. I am not sure I would change anyway personally.
11:54 PM I mean, I suspect your C&D is pretty good.
You likely know if you will beat me or not.
11:56 PM I'm not trying to be a dick about this or anything, but I pretty much made up my mind to make use of SPI Egypt. I don't really need writing, or fishing, or anything else ATM.
11:57 PM me: understood
well, huh. I was trying to do you a favor by letting you know we will probably beat you
11:58 PM yet, I am not sure
we really don't want to research poly yet if you are in fact beating us
11:59 PM jtgoldsmith: Well, it is due in 1-6 turns for me.
Does that help?

me: lol
12:00 AM of course not
jtgoldsmith: We can do this dance tomorrow by chat. But I have to be up at 5:30am to go to Los Angeles for work tomorrow. I am about two hours past my bedtime.
12:01 AM me: that's not ideal. we probably have to play the turn again before I'm up :/
why don't you just tell us?
12:02 AM jtgoldsmith: Cause I've been trying to decide if there is a way for you to speed it up a turn at this early stage
12:03 AM me: we know exactly what turn we will get it on
jtgoldsmith: I think the answer is probably no
I think it is four turns for me
me: from when?
12:04 AM jtgoldsmith: from EOT
me: which turn though?
26 just ended, do you mean t30?
12:05 AM jtgoldsmith: I think so
Not trying to be coy
There is some tile shifting I can do that changes the math
me: sure
jtgoldsmith: So I am just not sure
12:06 AM me: same reason I'm not sure about you I guess
we are getting it t30 too (so before you, if you are right)
jtgoldsmith: Yeah, I think you will probably beat me by turn order
12:07 AM Anyway, I really have to go
me: ok
I would like to ask a favor though, let me know when you can:
if you're going to finish it t29, let us know, take a screenshot, delay it a turn and we'll owe you one

I think we should continue on Poly and try to talk to GES again to make sure he at least doesn't snipe us.

However, next turn we can stay at 50% slider. After that, 3 more turns at 100% finishes it.

[Lewwyn]

Couple things. That dotmapping is an absolute nightmare. On the East coast if we had one more tile we could fit 4 cities along the east coast, but no. We are forced to 3. Dunno. I don't know if there's a better way to map the land. It's just awkward.

GES was complaining? I would GLADLY switch land. Does he not see how much greener his land is? How many more river tiles? Half his land is next to a river!

Let's race for Poly. I found the conversation very funny as it seems whenever my name comes up it lightens the mood... just you wait!

[Ranamar]

Turn was straightforward.
Minas Tirish whips a workboat. Next turn, the fish will be improved and Barad-Dur can take back the sheep.
Samwise chops.
Frodo moves to sheep and half-roads. (canceled road after starting so we don't accidentally finish it)
Gandalf and Strider move West to cross bridges. In the north, we reveal land:

EDIT: Definitely going to advocate for planting 1W of the pigs, if I haven't already. That would make two cities that can't really be choked, if you're going for a land assault. Unfortunately, that also makes them spectacularly weak by sea, but that's nothing we don't have a problem with everywhere else, too.

And now for some demographics:

It's a shame that the #2 in GNP is because we just gained 10 culture, and not because our research is off the charts or something.

I saw something weird in Cities...

Before ending turn:


After ending turn:


I suppose it's because end of turn was when they reevaluated the ranking of cities, but that's still weird.