[SPOILERS] The Kaiser Strikes back! A Bigger Germany is better

[Bigger]

yeah, although it might lead to scooter taking 2 pieces of the English mainland instead of one.

I'm not really sure at this point, I would like to see the board again in the winter and make a decision then (likely permanent) of whether to flip on scooter or not. I don't see how Molach could take the offer off the table, but lets hope not.

It does occur to me that while scooter could protect from a belgium stab, we are slightly more vulnerable (well, our NTH move would disrupt englands support, so we are safe this year)

[Bigger]

do we risk moving ADEN unsupported into Sweden, so we can get the BAL navy in DEN (better position), or take the safe route of supporting it from BAL?

If rowain renegs on moves, he will keep sweden but not get norway, so it seems unlikely he would antagonize me for a push.

[Bigger]

comforting Scooter

me: hey
scooter: hey hey
me: paranoia is the name of the game, I guess haha
scooter: still want that ska-nth support? waterbat floated that this morning,b ut wasn't sure if that's locked in or not
yeah hah
me: why not? is there anything else you can do with the ENG fleet?
scooter: molach was ignoring me yesterday and waterbat danced around my questions of if he'd contacted you, so that made me curious since no way he was ignoring us both.
me: i have to move into NTH, otherwise Molach can bounce Rowain out of Norway, which would also bounce me out of sweden, might as well see if Molach screws up and lets me in
I gotcha
scooter: yeah. i don't need eng for anything else I can think of. don't see any better ideas.
me: just a heads up
Sent at 1:41 PM on Friday
me: last email I got from Molach said he would support me into BEL, just in case I changed my mind.. not sure if his move will stay like that, but I wanted to tell you so you didn't think it was me cooperating with him
scooter: ah thanks
me: of course I can't take the change he changes it at last moment to support norway.. and anyway, I also have nothing else to do w/ my SKA fleet, hehe
Sent at 1:44 PM on Friday
scooter: yeah nth fleet needs to get cut regardless
Sent at 1:47 PM on Friday
scooter: ok, looking at the map and i'll def order mao-iri. him losing norway would mean he's gotta disband, very likely disband the army
so a convoy would mean GG
so if i'm in eng and iri... i can convoy pic to lvp, wal, or lon
Sent at 1:49 PM on Friday
me: yup
would be nice if I could get into NTH next spring and do a convoy in the fall too <G>
scooter: yep. and i'm pretty sure that's very doable
me: lets see, he'll have to retreat to NWG from NOR, so he'll have a fleet in LON, NTH, and NWG
scooter: he could hold Nth if he REALLY wanted to at that poitn, but at the cost of losing major centers
me: may have to get scooter to help me in exchange for him keeping a piece of scandanavia
scooter: rowain you mean i'm guessing :
*
me: yes
duh
he could cut support from NWG, or support me into NTH
scooter: i do wonder if he'll try to just hld nwy and attack eng
though i think that'd be silly as i'd then own iri, mao, and build bre
me: you mean this turn?
scooter: so if he wants to take ENG from me, be my guest
yeah
me: well with out moves it won't matter really if he attacks ENG, or if he supports NTH.. ill bounce either way
scooter: would have to get lucky to get into nth this turn probably, but it's worth a shot
me: true, true
Sent at 1:55 PM on Friday

[Bigger]

chat with Molach

me: any chance you're on but invisible?
Sent at 6:35 PM on Friday
Jamas: On now
Sent at 6:51 PM on Friday
me: hey
i was just about to send off an email, didn't want to miss your deadline, heh
Jamas: Right
me: sorry about taking so long, rl stuff
Jamas: Sorry for getting a bit excitable
me: no
honestly, I really like the way you are handling the situation
Jamas: But...
me: I love that you're putting up a fight, and you're quite elequent
well, ok. the lurker entertainment argument doesn't work with me, but the self-interest aspect is more appealing. You have to be an opportunist to get a solo victory, thats for sure
Sent at 6:53 PM on Friday
me: I'm not sure I could accomplish anything by turning on Scooter in 1902, other than alerting him that we were working togethor.. we can't push him out of BEL unless he makes a bonhead play, and I don't think he's an idiot. so he gets to adjust his new build in a way to repel us, and has 72 hours to scramble to Rowain or whoever else will listen. Does that make sense?
Jamas: Scooter said as much to me too.
Actually
I said you were not coming along.
But last emial was correct, I had to say that for the stab to work
me: that doesn't surprise me, our alliance so far has been based on being careful so neither person had an opportunity to stab, lol
Jamas: Scooter might have given you the mail, or certainly the gist of it.
I honestly don't see how him stabbing me really works. Nothing he can do right now anyways. Hard to see how he could do it without me seeing it a mile away and bringing Russia in to counter it (and really, at 6 centers I could fend off EG by myself for quite awhile). FR vs EG == Turkey win, and the one thing the three of us can all agree on is we don't want that. At any rate, not sure what options that leaves you with this year as he cannot damage me this turn, but he can give himself away if he DOES flip.
(Scooters mail)
me: yeah
he didn't say that to me
Jamas: However, russia will be weak without Nor & Swe,
me: he just sent off a "so, you're not gonna betray me right?" email
Jamas: Hehe
Cool that you get to play the mind game at least
me:
Jamas: Anyway, Russia will be bottled up, And france will have an army in burgundy. Belgium goes next year
And then it gets complicated, you need to talk to italy or austria
me: so my question to you is, is your offer now or never?
Jamas: I was thinking that, yes. Mostly about russia, letting them into norway means not much to do
me: cuz if so, I'd have to say never.. but I am open to re-examining in 1903, if we find ourselves in a better position to stab him, and TT has an extra season to help
Jamas: Cant see how you will be in better position nex year
me: well
I make hte sneak attack in spring, which puts me us in a position to bring 3 units on bel, possibly get TT in MAR as well
and if we're in that position, it would be easy for me to support you back into Norway as well
Jamas: Well I can go along with this, as it does not hurt my defense much
Not convinced you are not playing, but doesn't really matter to me
me: well, I'm just being honest. If we have an opportunity to take 2 units cores from scooter and/or rowain, and I get one of them, I'd be game. if we aren't, I'm gonna be in the same situation
Jamas: I mean, it matters very much that you will turn & stab, but if you are leading me on it doesn't matter much, I'm just as dead in a few years
me: I understand
Sent at 7:03 PM on Friday
Jamas: Lets see. Fleet norway gets driven out and disbanded in norwegian sea. Fleet Nth must remain in place. Russia ends up in norway. All that is gonna happen anyway
me: ok
I won't presume to tell you how to move, but this one would really put the screw on Scooter and make it easier for me to align with you next year
Fleet NTH moves to ENG, F LON supports that move
Jamas: Think other way around works just as well
me: scooters mao fleet will not be supporting it, fyi
no
Jamas: mao is going north atlantic
?
me: I will be moving fleet SKA, cutting any support NTH could give
iri
Jamas: F nwy attack F ska, wont that...cut the attack? Mabye I don't know rules fully
me: no
it would cut support, but not an attack
Jamas: Okay, because it bounces, or because ...that, yes
Sent at 7:08 PM on Friday
me: fleet ska moves to North, scooter is supporting me from ENG. so, if you supported it from LON, you could hold NTH, yes. then your NWG fleet is forced to retreat NWG. but the bounce cuts any support NTH gives, or if you are forced to retreat that also cuts support
however, there is no unit that can cut support for your LON fleet, so the nth could move in
anyway just an idea, I understand why you wouldnt trust me
Sent at 7:10 PM on Friday
me: so you're talking to scooter right now?
Jamas: Nono. Just wrote 3 things and erased them
me: yeah, I was wondering about that, haha
Jamas: This paranoia is why you should hit him
me: lol
Jamas: Anyway, I can't let you into Nth, it would certainly alert scooter that I just happened to make the one move that got channel
me: I told you, I'm warm to an effective hit, not a pointless one tho
Jamas: Ditto. But I have to guard against letting Germany get an easy ride
me: I understand
Jamas: Attack this year kind of removes russia from the equation, and then scooter will be down to diplo skill alone
So I'll just defend and see how it turns out.
me: well I'll see what the map looks like after retreats and builds. Like I said, if there's an opening to effectively stab scooter, I'm game. You know basically how I'm moving, so try to set it up so we can both hit scooter and/or norway next year, and we can work togethor
ok, well I don't know how you plan to defend, so I don't know how it will turn out, but I we have an opening to exploit in 1903. I mean that .
have = hope we have
Jamas: Yeah. And anyway be fun to follow from lurker lounge if not. They must be betting who stabs firt
01:15 here, nighttime
me: hehe, I dunno, not sure how many people are actually following us. Guess we'll see after the game
Sent at 7:17 PM on Friday
Jamas: Probably gonna clam up after this fall, so just ding if you have a proposal, otherwise just gonna play out the end of the english empire quietly. Later
Sent at 7:20 PM on Friday

Jamas is offline. Messages you send will be delivered when Jamas comes online.

[Bigger]

chat w/ Tatan after results posted

Tatan: you got time for a brief chat?
Sent at 11:34 PM on Friday
me: sure
was expecting results back by now, but I don't wanna nag Mardoc
lol
Tatan: what do you mean?
(and if that was a stupid question, sorry... it's late and i'm tired )
me: no, I didn't check the thread.. im very sleepy too and not thinking, was expecting email for some reason
hold on, let me check the results
brb
Tatan: since you haven't seen it yet, let me explain my position:
FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUX
sorry if that language is mildly blunt
Sent at 11:36 PM on Friday
me: so, matt stabbed you and allied with russia
that sucks
Tatan: nothing i could do about it from my current position, unfortunately, even if I had seen it coming
I screwed up early game diplomacy
me: yes
heh, clever Rowain
Tatan: well, ONE of them is an idiot
me: you know he tried to talk me into giving him norway and sweden so he wouldnt lose a build, since you two were obviously allied against him
Tatan: I just can't decide if it is Russia or Turkey
me: yes, its not Rowain though
heh
its turkey
Tatan: I dunno, if Rowain wastes time in beating the crap out of me, Turkey could make out handsomely
or I could just be completely wrong

me: so, what can we do damage control
Tatan: Nothing
I'm dead, dude
me: I'll try to get italy chatting as soona s posible
Tatan: It's just a matter of time
me: the good news is I don't think Italy's involved, if he was he would have ended up with a piece of you
Tatan: even with Italy on my side, Russia and Turkey would have to backstab each other almost immediately
in order for me to survive
me: well
Tatan: I did send an email to italy, though
me: I can possibly switch my plans around to hurt russia in the north
Tatan: don't do it if it hurts you too much
as in, don't stunt your growth
me: well if you die, it eliminates any possibility of stabbing scooter (poor molach) as I'll have to kill England asap to deal w/ russia
Tatan: only the problem with that is that as soon as England is gone, scooter has only two people he can stab
and you are a lot closer than TT
me: well we've been pretty good about not giving each other openings, and the plan was for him to go south into italy the whole time
to be honest, I was looking forward to a stalemate in the east for awhile, this sucks
Tatan: yep, eastern triangle just practically resolved overnight
me: wait, so matt took sev
did he stab you and rowain simeltaneously?
Tatan: i'll keep communication lines open with Rowain and Matt, trying to turn one of them, but i'm pretty sure it's hopeless
me: i missed that
Tatan: no, they had a deal
matt told me
me: geez
matt has 7 cores, russia still only has 5
no wonder he was hoping for norway and sweden
Tatan: Rowain gave it too him as an assurance that he wouldn't stab
me: well turkey is a beast
Tatan: unless of course turkey is blatantly lying to me
me: I have a decent relationship with him, I'll try putting pressure on him to cooperate with you
well if he did stab Rowain I'll get it out of him, but you're probably right
Tatan: i wouldn't spin it from the "help austria" angle
I would spin it from the "get Rowain before he gets you" angle
me: get matt you mean
yes
well, I will have 3 ships in scandanavia after my build
so I can take norway and STP easily, even w/o englands help
3 ships plus the army in sweden
Tatan: that will only make matt stronger and less afraid, though
me: i might be able to use it as leverage vs. rowain, tho
Tatan: Turkey potentially has the best position ATM
me: yes of course
Tatan: since you and scooter balance each other out
leverage is good, though, you're right
anyway, i'll tell you if anything new comes up
or a miracle occurs
me: well
how long do we have until moves are do?
Tatan: like two days?
a lot of time
me: more than that
we have build phase and hten 2 days
Tatan: right
me: we should have retreat phase too, but I guess that was skipped since only molach had a retreat, and he only had one option
Tatan: he had two options
but he already submitted orders and mardoc resolved it
anyway, I have to go to bed
i'm sure we can chat again sometime again before next spring
me: ok
wait
Tatan: ?
me: mardoc says builds are due sunday night, thats almost 48 hours
then 48 hours for moves
Tatan: 48 hours for builds, really?
me: so we'll have 4 days to figure something out.. I'll be busy w/ family stuff tom but I'll get to work sunday
Tatan: wow
me: thats what the thread says
Tatan: i just got off from school, so I should be free whenever I am not out partying
anyway
cya
me: k, ttyl

[Bigger]

so yeah, Tatan is just f'd. So is Molach. Given the way the resolution turned out, I just don't see any opportunity to stab scooter that wouldn't result in a long drawn out war, lasting probably until the juggernaught sweeps into western europe. Perhaps if he had taken my advice and occupied the channel, letting me take NTH. Although I completely understand why he couldnt trust me. More importantly, perhaps, we need to finish off England quickly to turn our attention east.

So talking to mattimeo is likely pointless, as will be talking to Molach, who can only really help at this point by giving me his cores. But it does look like turkey got the better of Russia, and perhaps I can use his vulnerable Norway and STP ports as leverage to force him into anti-turkey moves in the spring.

It doesn't seem like Italy is involved in the juggernaught, as he got no piece of Austria, so perhaps he can be convinced to help as well. and I'll have lots to talk with scooter about. In any case it looks like we'll have a good 96 ours to figure things out, which couldnt come at a better time.

any reason why I shouldn't put a fleet in KIE for my build?

thoughts? Disagree w/ anything?

I would like to be in a position to take an english core and possibly norway too in the fall, but we'll see. too tired to think about it too much tonight.

General Waterbat (yes, you deserve a few promotions) - Ill be away most of the day tom w/ family obligations, feel free to chat up scooter or TT and discuss strategy if you get the chance. I'll probably need to study the map a bit and think about what Rowain can do or what I can do to him before I talk to him. we do have time, though, I guess.

[waterbat]

I wouldn't discount the possibility that Matt stabbed them both and was going to do damage control afterward.

My initial thought is we secure Scandinavia and STP if possible. Italy and Austria need to band together. Maybe we can talk to TT about an IGA anti-turkey alliance.


Also I think you need to send an email off to scooter. In an indignant tone "you ply our ear about handing the game to Turkey, when your pal Rowain ( whom you think you can bring in any time against us) just did exactly that. "

Do we really want a Turkish vassal with fleets and armies up north?

[Bigger]

yes, the double stab occured to me. although rowain and tatan could still fight off turkey (esp w/ italys help) if they worked togethor, which makes the double stab less likely. Still, I'll find out when I talk to Rowain.

I don't really see any reason to be antoganistic (or indignant) towards Scooter - regardless of Rowain's motives, scooter had no part in it, and we are stuck working with each other for awhile, I think. Honestly a 3 way split (us, scooter, turkey) seems like a good goal to work towards, although I would love to cut one of those out if it becomes possible.

[Mardoc]

In any case it looks like we'll have a good 96 ours to figure things out, which couldnt come at a better time.

No, standard 24/48 at this point. 0100 Sunday is still Saturday night, in my book.

That is, 12 hours from now I need your build.

[waterbat]

What's wrong with accepting molach's offer and not stabbing scooter? We accept molach - tell him he can keep the isles into perpetuity. He can keep up diplo if he wishes - mainly as a means of getting info for the eg team. We tell scooter immediately - even before the build - England is now under our protection. tell France it's time to turn our attention east. Build armies not fleets. Use what's left of England to secure the north - we move into WAR. Scooter can take Italy.