Any lurkers mind giving me a hand with some mechanics issues? I'm finally putting together that C&D spreadsheet I keep mentioning.
1. When are points for land counted and assigned to each player?
Ok, obviously it's 20 turns after settling, and I've seen the proof of that. However, generally the scores of opponents behind me in the turn order are delayed one turn.
Here I can see that TBS, HK, and WK don't have score for palace or population since they haven't settled yet (having met TBS, I KNOW he settled Turn 0 and I'm positive the others did as well).
But take a look at these two screenshots:
It looks like everyone else's land points are assigned at the same time. No delay for the people after me; they haven't played the turn yet, and already the land points are counted? What happens if their cities were captured before they played? Also, it's clear that some population and tech points from turn 19 are mixed in with their (TBS, HK, WK) turn 20 land points.
2. How is the GNP figure calculated?
In this shot I'm obviously making 36 beakers, which should get added to culture to get GNP.
However, here my total GNP is only 36. Ok, that makes sense if I'm getting +1b from known tech bonus (if TBS has AC), +2 culture, and -3 from gold. What's confusing then is why everyone always talks about how deficit research creates big GNP jumps, leading some to "hide" their true capability by not running binary research. But if deficit gold cuts into GNP, how could it jump that much when science gets turned on?
3. How much is the known civs tech bonus? Turn 24 I put 25 raw beakers into AC and ended up with 26 towards it the next turn. I had 0 overflow from mining. Does this mean that since TBS is my only contact, he must have Ancient Chants?
(May 31st, 2013, 08:55)jalepeno Wrote: 1. When are points for land counted and assigned to each player?
I can't help you on this one.
(May 31st, 2013, 08:55)jalepeno Wrote: 2. What's confusing then is why everyone always talks about how deficit research creates big GNP jumps, leading some to "hide" their true capability by not running binary research. But if deficit gold cuts into GNP, how could it jump that much when science gets turned on?
I think this is because science multipliers are easier and earlier to build than commerce multipliers. Say you had an academy in your capital: running 100% science would make your GNP look 50% (plus prereq bonuses, plus known tech bonuses) higher than running 100% cash.
(May 31st, 2013, 08:55)jalepeno Wrote: 3. How much is the known civs tech bonus?
30% divided by the number of players currently in the game. So, 6% right now.
Thanks for the help Dave. I remembered to check TBS' civics last turn and confirmed that he has AC (he just revolted to God-King), which fits with the extra beakers I got while researching it. With all the people his exploratory genius has met, he'll be getting some nice bonuses when he goes for crafting/mining.
Anyone else want to take a stab at how/when land points get assigned?
Not much happened here, so thought I'd share my C&D conclusions so far.
Here are the current scores and demos:
Rival best land area shows that no one else has a second city yet. I'm rocking the GNP and food, while my production sucks (that's what happens when you're busy building workers/settlers with food...and 3 opponents running God-King).
Sian
Start: SIP (or maybe not*) and settled his shade as GS. Built worker-worker (Didn't grow to size 2 until turn 15).
Tech: Exploration (starting), Agriculture (T4), AC (T10), Mysticism (T20), and has 6 turns of research into something else (crafting? calendar?).
Thoughts: double worker first isn't bad when you'e got lazy elves, but no high commerce tiles hooked on T26 is painful. For production, GK pumps forested plains and hills to 4 yield, but agrarian farms are still better (IMO should have gone calendar before ac->myst). This is a slooow start which will be hard to recover from (then again, with elves, he knew that going in).
*edit: From land points it looks like he has 1 tile of lake/coast in his BFC. Since we're supposed to have mirrored starts, that means he probably moved his capital to flatland T0...doesn't seem like a good idea. can't think of what else could be the cause though.
Yell0w
Start: SIP and settled his shade as GS. Built worker->warriors.
Tech: AC (Starting), Agriculture (T4), Calendar (T12), Mysticism (T20), Crafting (T25), 1 turn into something (mining?)
Thoughts: Ind and Spi have enabled him to get off to a very fast start. Interesting to compare with HK: grew to size 2 the same turn, HK beat him to size 3 by a turn (dwarven worker finishes corn farm a turn earlier), but Yell0w makes it up with anarchy-free switch to Agrarianism and they grow to sizes 4 and 5 on the same turns. Looks like a strong opponent.
Jalepeno (for comparison sake)
Start: SIP and settled shade as GS. T0 River of Blood. Built worker, worker, BP, BP, settler, BP, worker (in process)
Thoughts: RoB powered a very fast start. First to second city. Looking good.
The Black Sword
Start: SIP and settled his shade as GE. Built worker->warrior. Grown all the way to size 8
Tech: Agriculture (Starting), Calendar (T10), AC (T15), Mysticism (T22), 4 turns into something (Crafting?)
Thoughts: Worked the oasis tile over deer early game, meaning GE gave +1 H/-1 b. However, that -1b meant he had 14 base rather than 15, which cost him another beaker per turn while research calendar (.2*15 = +3, .2*14 = +2 from prereq bonus). That's made him slower to reach calendar and mysticism, which each boost food/production, potentially negating the GE production bonus. Still, good tech path, and he's almost certainly finished a philosophically cheap elder council and will have an academy down in 11-12 turns or so. So he'll catch up on tech soon enough.
HidingKneel
Start: SIP and settled his shade as GS (teching to fast to be GE). Built worker->warriors
Tech: Crafting (Starting), Agriculture (T4), Calendar (T12), Mining (T20), Exploration (T23), AC (T25), probably going for mysticism next
Thoughts: Ind and the oft-forgotten dwarven work bonus = fast start. Just got 2 techs in 5 turns, so probably the rival best GNP (with incense and gems improved). Only one to match me on tech (although he did start with +40b advantage due to crafting over exploration; am I the only one who finds that beaker discrepancy somewhat extreme?). Looking strong.
WarriorKnight
Start: SIP and settled his shade as GS (got ag in 5 turns, impossible with GE). Built worker->warriors
Tech: Crafting (Starting), Agriculture (T4), Mining (T15), Calendar (T21), Exploration or AC (T25), guessing AC->myst for cheap elder council + early academy
Thoughts: lack of early game traits and choosing mining before calendar have slowed him up a bit. Last one to hit size 5 (T23), but he's got all of the basic worker techs for this start and should catch up on tech with cheap EC and early academy.
If anyone's interested, my score tracking spreadsheet is here. Will be interesting to see after the game just how much of this is correct; I actually think most of it is pretty straightforward and clear right now.
Not much going on: workers started farming the corn and will complete next turn in time for Synergies to grow EOT 28. Yell0w grew to size 6, which suggests that he built a pagan temple (no other way to get happy). Trying to get a prophet to bulb a religion perhaps? TBS finished a tech in 4 turns: could either be exploration or crafting (if he had a some overflow from myst, although I guess he's getting at least 18% known civs bonus on it too).
HK is now researching something with a prereq, probably mysticism, after grabbing two quick first tier techs (rival best GNP up to 40). Still no other 2nd cities.
So that's what "configured for hammers" looks like. At this rate, TBS can spit out a settler in 3 turns.
So this turn, I gained 5 points as Synergies grew to size 2 (8 total pop, every 4th is worth 5 instead of 4), WK gained 8 points for another tech (in only 2 turns...looks like 2 first level techs, first in 4 turns with lots of overflow to 2-turn the second), and Yell0w gained 4 points for growing another population.
But wait a second you say, didn't Yell0w grow to size 6 just last turn? What's he doing gaining another pop so soon....noooo! A quick check of rival land area confirms, someone has a second city down.
Interestingly, rival best land area went from 37 to 46 thousand, so new city added 9 land tiles, eg. no cultural overlap. That means his second city is at least 4 tiles from the capital, and he has no water within his borders.
My first [non-animal] barb is no slouch. No real danger as I moved 3 BPs into Synergies and Paradigm finishes a 2nd BP EOT. Can 1-turn BP in both cities next turn if need be. Worker micro is somewhat off, but no big deal. This does confirm my decision earlier today to skip the monument and build some extra BPs instead (since BW will be in soon and I want explorers).
Demos:
-no score changes for once
-Rival best GNP tops me for first time all game. My guess is its HK teching mysticism and getting a known tech bonus from TBS (and Yell0w if they've met). I've got 8 pop to his 5, so he can't have more raw commerce.
-What is Sian doing? Last tech was 9 turns ago. He doesn't have calender or mining yet, so his research is slooow.
Lizardman takes very little damage munching on my unfortified BP. Odds for attacking out were only 11%, so decided to hope he takes more damage attacking next time. Hope he can't promote! EOT I've got 3 BP in Synergies, 2 in Paradigm, and 1 busting his butt to on his way to Synergies.
Demos:
3 players gained 4-5 points: Sian, Yell0w, and HK. For Yell0w, it's his 2nd city growing to size 2 in just two turns (wow! took me 4). For the other 2, one grew to size 6, the other settled a second city (rival avg land went up by 1600, 5 rivals, =8000 increase, means 8 new land tiles). Since Sian grew to size 5 eight turns ago, gonna guess he hasn't had time to get a settler out, move and settle him. So assigning HK a second city, and Sian size 6 for now, but will know for sure in a couple turns. Sian's creative, so if the city is his, it'll pop borders in 3 turns and rival best land will go up by a good bit.
So after BW, AH is the only basic worker tech left (hunting for 2 deer not worth it). Oh, and uh, education 
