HidingKneel horses around with Rhoanna [HAR! I mean, SPOILERS!]

[Commodore]

Anything not on the beeline to Warhorses?

[HidingKneel]

Anything not on the beeline to Warhorses?

You mean this beeline to Warhorses?

Less valuable than currently impossible and later unlikely trade routes? Uh...it's got to be something I forgot is even on the tree. Or else your definitions of useful are odd...maybe Optics?

On a land based map (which is the vast majority of games I've played) Optics would be high on my list of useless techs. On this one, I'm not so sure. Of course, you'd know better than I would about that .

Archery.

Naw... Archery increases the value of chops, unlocks a situationally useful improvement, and is a prereq for Horse Archers. Not a priority for the moment, but definitely not useless...

Optics would be very useful...depending on your definitions it could be any of the mana techs, but maybe medicine, or priesthood? Or something I've forgotten in that part of the tree.
My money's on medicine.

Medicine's actually a good contender. Unlocks buildings I'll never want to build and gives a passive bonus which is made mostly irrelevant by Expansive. Another solid contender for something to dump my negative beakers into.

But the answer is Necromancy. Which admittedly is not completely useless. Entropy mana is potentially awesome for fighting opponents with metal weapons. If I ever find some opponents. But it's the least useful branch of the Arcane tree, at least for me, which I don't really want to go down anyways (no Alchemy Labs at Sorcery for me). Though the RNG seems to have other ideas...

[Qgqqqqq]

Don't forget blur either.
Damn, necromancy was my first guess out of the mana techs, but I felt sure I'd got if with medicine

[HidingKneel]

Aww....



Can't have everything, I suppose.

Didn't have the doubler, so failgold is 1-1. Which is actually not such a bad deal right now.
That cash will get me through Writing and Trade over the next 2-3 turns. After that my Great Merchant will be generated. I'm thinking I should hold off on the GA for now, though. If I'm teching Honor after Trade, I should probably wait for Honor to come in.

[HidingKneel]

Turn 98.

Finally located another player:



That's DaveV's Balseraphs, down in the jungle far to my SE. Haven't made contact yet, and not sure whether I should.
Dave's at the bottom of the scoreboard and far away, so I'm not too worried about him, but I don't want him giving away information about my position to anyone else right now. Maybe "contact" should be made with a large contingent of chariots? I don't have any of those, yet, but the first one is coming soon.

Note: down in that jungle are some resources I would dearly like to have. A higher happy cap would really boost my economy.

A different sort of boost is on the way, though:



I've got Trade now, so two trade routes per city. A couple of island cities should double that. And I'm all set to start founding them the turn after next, assuming my Galley doesn't get eaten by the sea life. (That would be -very- expensive .)
Found a third island as well, which I can settle a few turns later.

Tech-wise: after finishing Trade, I'm saving gold. I got a Great Merchant next turn, but I'm going to hold off on a GA until I'm ready to swap into a religion. Still haven't decided which one, but I'm probably going to head to AV. My economy isn't good enough that I can afford to make diversions. Empyrean would be useful for Rathas, but half the point would be to unlock Overcouncil and that'll be useless if I decide to go with Veil later on. I can probably tech Corruption of Spirit over the next ten turns, swap to Veil on the first turn of a GA, research Infernal Pact, and swap civics to StW/Slavery before it ends.

In thinking about StW/Slavery, I was toying with the idea of adding City States to the mix. Between being a cheaper civic and reducing maintenance it'll save me around 50 gpt, which is 40 commerce per turn given my Financial trait. I did a count: it looks like I'm working 75 farms right now, so I'd lose 150 commerce and gain 75 food. Which sounds like a good deal until you points out that it drops my breakeven science rate to 0%. Even with the ability to turn that 75 food into buildings via Slavery, I don't see how I can have a real economy that way...

Assuming I go Corruption of Spirit/Infernal Pact, what's next? There are two cheap worker techs I still need: Archery and Hunting. After that, I'm thinking Mathematics. Given that I need to run 60% gold just to stay afloat, Gambling Houses will be worth 6 happy faces each (maybe even more as I continue to overexpand). That's definitely the building I want to be whipping in my population centers. Mathematics is also a prereq for Engineering, which unlocks a ridiculous amount of mobility (combined with the Horselord trait, at least once I actually build some horses) and also the Guild of Hammers if I can manage to get there first. Not clear that I will: I've got a decent lead, but haven't managed to land any wonders yet.

You know what would be a good wonder to have on this map? The Great Lighthouse. I've got a ton of coastal cities; 2 trade routes each would be awesome. Got one of my coastal cities started on a regular lighthouse, and we'll see how it goes:



I'm not optimistic, though. Someone built the Heron Throne a few turns ago, so is well-poised to beat me to it.

How good is my lead? Here are the latest demos:



I'm pretty sure that the top GNP is a Golden Age. Commerce-wise, we've got a slight edge but not a very large one. We're usually #1 while gathering gold or getting a prereq bonus, but drop to last place after finishing a tech. Production-wise we've got a modest lead, and in food we're miles ahead of everyone. Which ought to translate to a much bigger advantage in the long run. Especially when new civics come in, so that small cities can grow faster and big cities can do something useful with the food...

[Qgqqqqq]

I've got Trade now, so two trade routes per city. A couple of island cities should double that. And I'm all set to start founding them the turn after next, assuming my Galley doesn't get eaten by the sea life. (That would be -very- expensive lol.)
Found a third island as well, which I can settle a few turns later.

You may be aware of this, but your pathing makes it look like you don't, so I thought I'd better clarify, sea turtles have UNITAI_ANIMAL just like bears and so on, and so have a good chance of attacking nearby units.

[HidingKneel]

I've got Trade now, so two trade routes per city. A couple of island cities should double that. And I'm all set to start founding them the turn after next, assuming my Galley doesn't get eaten by the sea life. (That would be -very- expensive lol.)
Found a third island as well, which I can settle a few turns later.

You may be aware of this, but your pathing makes it look like you don't, so I thought I'd better clarify, sea turtles have UNITAI_ANIMAL just like bears and so on, and so have a good chance of attacking nearby units.

Oh, I know. Ship's got 5 moves, so it can safely get past the turtle in any case... not sure I want to risk using all my movement up in a spot I don't have vision on, though, given the value of the cargo.

[HidingKneel]

Game starting to get more interesting...

First off, I don't need to debate whether I should make contact with Dave: he made contact with me first.
Got this by email:

We've met in-game. Greetings from last place to first place.

Pithy.

Opened the save to find a griffon next to my warrior:



That must belong to Dave. It's not far from where I want to put my island cities, and has the potential to be quite annoying. I'd better make nice:

Greetings from the Hippus Empire!

We've been wandering the wilds for some time now and we've met all manner of beasts... but I guess we've finally met a domesticated one?

Erebus is a big place. It was starting to look like a hundred turns would go by before we made any contacts... but it seems that we got this one in just under the wire. Have you had more luck than we have?

I hope we can find ways to work together. If we were to establish a trade connection, the Hippus could offer Gold, Gems, Pearls, and Silks for trade. Would those be of interest, and what could the Balseraphs offer in exchange?

Curious thing, goblins building roads. Makes us wonder if they're working for that big dragon we've heard so much about. Know anything about that?

Information about resource trades would be good. Also, I want to see if he considers the jungled resources between us (closer to him than to me) to be "his".

Trade window reveals Dave's got around a dozen cities. Tech-wise, he's not doing so well. He's running the same civics that I am (Aristocracy/Nationhood/Apprenticeship/Agrarianism). The only tech he has that I don't is hunting (nice to get a known-tech bonus on that). He's got basic Aristograrianism techs in place (Code of Laws, Construction), but not Sanitation, and not much else: no Mysticism, for example. He doesn't own any wonders (doesn't even have the techs to have built them).

His power is pretty high for a barbarian civ:



So I couldn't roll over him easily without making a much bigger military investment. Well, that's a long way off in any case, given how far away he is.

In other news, that turtle is annoying me:



Parked itself in the middle of the road. My Galley can't travel on ocean, so there's no way to get past there unless the turtle moves out of the way. I decided to leave my workboat as bait for it; if it takes the bait, my Galley can squeeze by next turn.

What else? Finally got Silks connected this turn, for a much-needed boost everywhere.
Still saving gold. Probably three more turns, then I'll start teching Corruption of Spirit.

EOT demographics:

[HidingKneel]

Two more turns played.

On turn 101, I finally got me some island cities:



Those were immediately worth about 20 gpt each (while I'm running 100% gold, at least). My economy is now humming... I think only one more turn of saving gold, and then I can get started teching AV (should take 4 turns).

Got a warrior exploring the vast expanse of plains to my east:



Looks like he ran into the lion which ate my previous explorer. Speaking of which: I re-encountered the wolf that took out my bronze warrior earlier, and it managed to kill another of my C1 bronze warriors . The RNG is capricious...

More diplomacy with DaveV:

Sorry for the terse greeting; it was after my bedtime but I thought it would be less rude to send a brief message than to send nothing. I'll try to be more friendly and answer your questions now.

It is indeed a big map; it would be perfect for a civ with, say, EXP/FIN as traits. You're clearly running away with this game, but I don't subscribe to the philosophy that the leader must be punished for playing well. Congratulations on a great first hundred turns. And thanks for the known tech bonus on those dozen or so techs.

I haven't encountered any other civs, although I've seen the barbs mobilize to chase some foreigners that were hiding in the fog.

Yes, that's obviously my griffon. You won't be seeing any HN animals from me, because the barbs attack them if I don't declare nationality.

The goblin worker was, indeed, building roads to connect two barb cities. But that was before Loki signed them up for clown college; now the worker seems to be sitting idle waiting for a new job. I'd appreciate it if you don't pillage any road tiles you might encounter in the wild; the barbs went to a lot of trouble to build them. While I'm making requests for neighborly behavior, I'd prefer you didn't pop any lairs in my land. And please try not to kill any animals that might prefer to join one of our zoological preserves.

Trade routes are somewhat problematic, since you have Sailing (and, presumably, a defogged route) and I don't. I'd be willing to sign up for a deal where we both benefit, even if the benefits weren't exactly equal, but I don't think you need any freebies at this point.

As to dragons, I haven't encountered any. The settings say "No Acheron"; do you have reason to believe that he's present anyway?

Finally, good luck against the skeleton swarm; I don't expect you to have much trouble.

Dave,



That's a lot of skeletons! I hope our warrior gives no offense by hanging tight for a few turns (if he lasts that long).



Your requests sound reasonable enough. I doubt we'll have opportunities to open lairs in any case: at least the ones in our own territory seem to be very heavily defended.

The dragon Acheron is an old legend, dating from before the end of the Age of Ice. Just scroll to the bottom of the event log, and you'll see. I gather you haven't encountered him in your travels.

Regarding the contact: we were thinking more of resource deals, rather than a trade connection. We haven't researched Cartography and that's unlikely to change in the near future. But we do have some luxuries you might find useful, some of which seem to be in short supply.

Horselord Kneel

HK,

The skeletons didn't attack this turn. I have no issues with your warrior holding to the high ground to fend off their upcoming offensive.

Acheron at the bottom of the log file. I guess I really haven't been playing my A game in this one. I haven't seen him, nor any sign of a barb city with more than first ring boundaries.

Regarding resource trade: to be honest, I have more health and happy resources than I need at the moment. I'd be willing to trade resources to establish good relations, but I already have Gems and Gold. Sailing is on my short list of future research priorities, so Silks would be more interesting than Pearls. Forgive my paranoia, but before I start discussing locations of my cities and resources, I'd like some assurance that your warrior is not the vanguard of an invasion force. Maybe one of those indefinite NAPs with cooldown that all the trendy kids are signing?

Dave,



I can offer a couple of assurances. First, there's no need to tell me anything more about the location of your cities than I already know. Our warrior can spot Balseraph culture to his south, and that's where I'd propose to build an (overland) connection.



I can also tell you that our warrior isn't the vanguard of an invasion, but is the vanguard of a settling party. We've got a settler en route to stake a claim to the land a few tiles northwest of where our warrior is standing now, to lay claim to the Sugar west of Loki's current location.

Now, we have no hostile intentions, but we need our Luxuries. We're amenable to an agreement along the following lines:

1) The Hippus have settling rights to the spot that I mentioned. In exchange, we agree not to settle any further in your direction.

2) The NAP is tied to a Luxury exchange. We provide Silks, and you provide something we need (perhaps Dyes? We see a source of Dyes south of where our warrior is now). This resource exchange need not take effect immediately (we don't have a trade connection yet), but we both agree to make a good faith effort to get that connection up and running in a timely fashion.

If that sounds reasonable, we're prepared to agree to an NAP with a reasonable length cooldown (5 turns? 10 turns? You can decide.) The understanding will be that the resource trade lasts as long as the NAP (so that deals don't get cancelled until the cooldown ends), and that right of first strike will be given to whoever does not cancel the agreement.

The NAP will be understood to encompass all manners of aggression (so we don't open lairs near one another and we don't harass each other with HN units). Moreover, the Hippus will agree not to tear up any of those barbarian roads and to make a good faith effort not to kill any animals in the jungle between us.

Sound fair to you?

Horselord Kneel

Those skeletons he mentioned are out here:



I promoted my warrior to Shock, so he ought to pull through. Note that Dave's headed my way with Loki. I'm slightly worried about him catching view of my new island cities. One of those is currently guarded by an adept, and Dave would have good odds taking it out with a griffon if he chose. Of course, I'd probably retaliate with a chariot invasion if he did that. Because I'm finally getting some of those built:



We're up to twenty cities now. Should start adding some stables soon; I found two more islands to colonize, so I can make good use of the extra trade routes.

Demos at EOT:

[Qgqqqqq]

Are you intending to beat up on Dave later, or is it a straight out builder game to omnesience?