[Spoilers] CH tries to be more than a warm body

[Ceiliazul]

I wasnt discarding the "prisoners dilemma", just poking fun and doing my lurker duty in goading war.

The prisoners dilemma (as applied here at RB) is real if going to war means getting into a slog where you both get dragged down. However, the techniques for avoiding a quagmire have been honed pretty well, beginning with opponent selection and continuing into unit tactics... Basically those who've played a bit can usually spot the right time/place for war to avoid the "drag is both down" result.

And we've also pretty conclusively proved that in these big pitboss games, there is also an opportunity cost in not going to war at all. The top finishers of the last few pitbosses ALL had a successful war to grow their empire.

So the dilemma isnt whether you should go to war, it's simply when/how. Making that choice is naturally the big pivot of the game, choose unwisely and its clear pretty quickly.

[Cheater Hater]

I was all ready to give you a good report, with a new troop picture and all that, but you're getting a lazy report because DZ has decided to kingmake and attack me instead of actually trying to defend against taotao. Granted, he hasn't actually attacked me yet, but he just moved up three chariots out of nowhere and can hit Hua with 4 units this turn--the three chariots are certainly enough to take out the two axes, even without the extra Impi that can go take out MP. I'm 1T-ing an archer in every one of my cities, but obviously the one in Hua won't complete in time. I know this is worst case, and he could just be protecting his workers to chop out some units, but he can see Hua's lack of defenses (only one axe until this turn), and he wants to just screw with the game than actually try and defend. I mean, he hasn't seen my stage tile, and I only gathered them this turn, so he would have no reason to think I'm attacking him next turn (especially since Serdoa/NH still have a lower power). I knew this was too good to be true

[GermanJoey]

CH, can you clarify which unit stack has you concerned? I can't figure it out from your pictures.

[Cheater Hater]

CH, can you clarify which unit stack has you concerned? I can't figure it out from your pictures.

It's the stack of 3 Chariots 1S of Nairobi--that tile is roaded (even though it doesn't look like it), and DZ has three workers on the tile 1S of that--if he roads that this turn, he can hit Hua. Again, this requires DZ to actually road the tile this turn (and not just chop the forest, which is also reasonable), but if he's not attacking me, why would he bring all those Chariots down here?
Edit: Do you have to do the login/logout/wait for an hour dance every time you play DZ? You need to put me out of my suspense, for my own health at the very least.
Edit2: And yep, DZ enjoys kingmaking
Edit3: Wait, DZ kept the city? I don't know how much he has in the fog, but that seems like he's still trying to win at least and not just spite me because he could--now the only question is whether I play now or not--technically the turn split is taotao->me->DZ, but since taotao and I are on the same side it shouldn't matter much. It's still a BS move (since DZ still has no chance of winning, or even surviving for another 20 turns), but at least a little more fair.

[Cheater Hater]

Yes, as you know, I lost Hua because DZ likes to kingmake and hold the game hostage to play last every single turn. Thankfully, he's not going full-jerk; he didn't burn Hua, he hasn't pillaged anything yet, and he didn't even delete the exposed worker than acted before I could move it. Unfortunately I didn't kill any chariots on the defense (because Civ4 combat math is stupid and 4+100% > 5+65% even though 8 < 8.25), but what we saw is mostly what we got, as expected--two HAs showed up by VB (again, units that probably would be better served defending against the clear leader than ruining 3rd place), but thankfully that actually had a decent garrision for obvious reasons (Axe+Archer, and I moved up two Chariots and a Spear as well). The full folder is here (as I'm obviously not in the mood for a pretty report), but I moved up three Cats and three Axes to Nairobi (which only has an Archer right now, though I expect one or two Impis to retreat back into the city), killed the Chariot+Impi that captured my Worker, and reinforced around VB. Hopefully the taotao/DZ war is still going (taotao didn't attack this turn, though they're still at war) so DZ runs out of units and I can take back Hua, as well as the two cities I originally planned to take.

[Fenn]

Sorry for the lack of responses, this game has slipped my mind lately.

That sucks dude. I guess DZ wanted some glory before he went out. If he's only got four cities left then you definitely have the advantage, even if taotao makes peace Donovan can't make up your production advantage. Anyway I doubt taotao is going to make peace yet, probably just consolidating his forces. I don't think he'll go for war with you either, at least not right away - OB with you does benefit him as well as yourself.

Cranking out military for the near future is your best bet probably, but afterwards Harbors in Cuzco and later in Vilcas (lookin' nice with Moai btw) would be fine. Now that you have foreign trade routes they're worth building in cities with lots of pop and hammers, but until you have intercontinental foreign routes I wouldn't build them all over the place.

Most importantly...don't give up! You're still in this with a shot, which is more than DZ and Commodore can say

[Cheater Hater]

Sorry for the lack of responses, this game has slipped my mind lately.

That sucks dude. I guess DZ wanted some glory before he went out. If he's only got four cities left then you definitely have the advantage, even if taotao makes peace Donovan can't make up your production advantage. Anyway I doubt taotao is going to make peace yet, probably just consolidating his forces. I don't think he'll go for war with you either, at least not right away - OB with you does benefit him as well as yourself.

Cranking out military for the near future is your best bet probably, but afterwards Harbors in Cuzco and later in Vilcas (lookin' nice with Moai btw) would be fine. Now that you have foreign trade routes they're worth building in cities with lots of pop and hammers, but until you have intercontinental foreign routes I wouldn't build them all over the place.

Most importantly...don't give up! You're still in this with a shot, which is more than DZ and Commodore can say

I guess that's the one thing about DZ choosing Hua as the city to take--it had a ton of commerce, but virtually no production

DZ actually played before 5 seconds were left on the timer this time, and no news there--I might even log in after the turn roll just to check, even though I'm not playing until tomorrow (both because I'm technically behind taotao in the turn order, even though it doesn't matter, and because I don't want to play a turn when I should be asleep).

taotao has a lot of OB offers though--I'm still expecting him to cancel it at the 10 turn mark at the very least.

I always give up at this time--look back at all my previous games, and you can point to the moment when I snap. Of course, this isn't nearly as damaging as some of the others (getting my fourth city razed on ~T50 in PBEM58, dtay piling on in PB18A, xenu ****ing me over for "lulz" in PB18B, no one attacking the leader in PB26)--but then again, I've never been close to the lead in a game yet.

[Ceiliazul]

but then again, I've never been close to the lead in a game yet.

Clearly, your position as score leader means you are chaeting new personal territory, and old habits dont apply. So any previous failings need not bleed into this game.

What are the threats?
How can you improve your position?
What is the next goal?

[Cheater Hater]

but then again, I've never been close to the lead in a game yet.

Clearly, your position as score leader means you are chaeting new personal territory, and old habits dont apply. So any previous failings need not bleed into this game.

What are the threats?
How can you improve your position?
What is the next goal?

Right now my goal is to finish off DZ, but I'm in a race to do so--CivStats says that taotao took two cities off DZ this turn, which should mean DZ only has three left: old Hua, Nairobi, and either Maersk or his capital, depending on where taotao struck. The only question is where DZ decided to move all his troops--I only have three Axes in the Nairobi stack (so I can't capture it if he shoves four units in there), but if he reinforced Hua he could start doing worse things in my territory (since I unfortunately don't have quite as many units on my western coast as I should, since I don't want the cost of a gigantic standing army).

After I finish off DZ (assume I take Hua and Nairobi, taotao might get to Nairobi first), then it gets harder. The obvious weakest link becomes Serdoa/NH, but I don't have a clear attack vector--the western border is an unsettled chokepoint, while the eastern border is too far away from my core (read: takes my forces too far away from possible taotao attacks). I think I have to wait for taotao to make the first move, either starting a Serdoa/NH dogpile or attacking away from me so I have some safety.

[Cheater Hater]

**** you, now I'm done.