[Spoilers] Fintourist and Old Harry have nothing to see here

[Old Harry]

Just logged in to finish off the turn and Lewwyn offered OB's - I re-offered for 17 gold + 2gpt, so 37 gold. Since that was the most he could pay.

Commodore offered a crab for OBs, which is interesting. I turned it down, as we have crab.

There isn't much point sending our galley to meet Commodore any more, so it could get back to BoP in 18 turns or round to Jamestown in 16 turns. I sent it back to BoP as Jamestown will be able to produce a galley quick if needed and the Mackoti coast is where I expect it to be needed.

Over to Suttree. We'll see if he wants to kill our chariot...

[Fintourist]

Quick Comment:

Commodore now has contact with everybody so I guess he does not really need to pay for his OBs. We have our set full of routes of course too, but Commodore has big cities so OBs would still be beneficial. I thing we should re-offer that crab deal, we don't have own source of crabs so it's still nice. Moreover, maybe that makes Commodore not to sign OBs with e.g. plako, so that plako needs to keep paying us..

If Lewwyn does not accept our demand, I think we could just go with plain OB too. I can't remember if he has big cities, but I would assume that we would earn couple of commerce there too.

The times of getting extra gpt from Alphabet is unfortunately coming to an end..

[Old Harry]

Turn 141

Suttree took peace without hitting our chariot and I offered the crab trade to Commodore with a map trade thrown in. He's only met folks with Christian cites, so we may yet get cash for a little while longer. Lewwyn has plenty of OBs already so I just offered them straight up to him. Perhaps we need our resource trades to start making us more money?


Dunkirk has all the infra it needs now so I put it on wealth to get us CS eot142. After that it could build Catapults, Horse Archers, Longbows, Elephants, pre-build a Swordsman (to upgrade to a Mace), Workers or Settlers. Cats seem most useful long-term. We can put two chops into it this or next turn or we could use them to get the market in Light Brigade to 90/150 (its worth ~3gpt at break even right now, but that will grow as the city does). I'll put off the decision to next turn if I don't hear anything.


Issy grew to six, but the workshop isn't ready until next turn and even then it's not a good tile yet. I think we should 1-pop whip the courthouse instead. When it grows back again in five turns the workshop will be GA and Caste boosted FTW. Jamestown finished the Heroic Epic and could 1-turn cats for the next four turns, but a 4-turn courthouse first might be advisable. We need to up our espionage spending...


Omdurman started the National Epic, but we will have marble worries... I'm sure WilliamLP will cancel his marble deal with us on t143 as he has OBs with Lewwyn now, so a prudent National Epic-builder would sort out another source this turn or next. We have spare Sugar and Dye, and potential trading partners are: Bacchus, TBSJ, Ichabod, Plako and Pindicooter. I'll offer Dye to Bacchus as he hasn't ended turn, is low on the scoreboard and has been generally friendly. If he offers back for sugar+dye I'll be happy, we can always cancel the deal with a war dec once the NE is built...


Power and demos

TL/DR: put two chops into Dunkirk or LB? Courthouse in Jamestown? Whip courthouse in Issy?

[Fintourist]

I cant log in until tomorrow so thanks for the report! Here are some comments:

Suttree took peace

Let's start moving our units west again..

Perhaps we need our resource trades to start making us more money?

Rival worst approval (52 %) indicates that at least somebody is hurting for happy so there might be some potential..

Dunkirk has all the infra it needs now so I put it on wealth to get us CS eot142. After that it could build Catapults, Horse Archers, Longbows, Elephants, pre-build a Swordsman (to upgrade to a Mace), Workers or Settlers. Cats seem most useful long-term. We can put two chops into it this or next turn or we could use them to get the market in Light Brigade to 90/150 (its worth ~3gpt at break even right now, but that will grow as the city does). I'll put off the decision to next turn if I don't hear anything.

Sounds good. I like wealth + military in Dunkirk and chopping into Market in LB.

Issy grew to six, but the workshop isn't ready until next turn and even then it's not a good tile yet. I think we should 1-pop whip the courthouse instead. When it grows back again in five turns the workshop will be GA and Caste boosted FTW. Jamestown finished the Heroic Epic and could 1-turn cats for the next four turns, but a 4-turn courthouse first might be advisable. We need to up our espionage spending...

Courthouse whip in Issy is good. I don't like courthouse in Jamestown though. Let's start immediately using our HE (1-turning cats etc.) I think stables is currently the only infra build that could make sense in J. We don't need EP points that much..


And I also agree that we should try to secure us marble, before William can cancel our current deal!

So nobody has any WW in Scoopin-Nakor war yet?

[Old Harry]

Plako just started a golden age and switched to Caste, so Bacchus thought it a good moment to take this island city! Nicely judged sir! Just a one-off skirmish, or the start of something more exciting? I'll guess the former, but hope the latter. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Bacchus to attack Plako's mainland holdings. Does it? He went for the marble-dye deal too.


Issy could overflow from the courthouse into a christian temple for the AP hammers - it pays off in 20 turns - worth it or should we just start on maces? I've saved both chops for Light Brigade next turn as I think it gets us one food and one hammer extra and Jamestown will pop out our first catapult as soon as Ichabod and retep play.

I was a bit worried that YM's workshop suddenly jumped to be worth 5 hammers, but that's just (!) golden age and Caste System boost. At least he isn't coming for us in five turns.

[Old Harry]

Turn 142

Peterloo now has its library along with 55 hammers of overflow. What next? It could build a market (it's not going to be that good a commerce city though), or a monastery for the culture (Mack can build culture now though, so I doubt we're getting the corn via culture), A courthouse would be handy if we grow the city big on the farms, or we can take advantage of vassalage to get some 2-promo cats or Wellys, or it could build a longbow?


Nuremburg grew, but annoyingly doesn't have a tile to work because Om stole all the labour to chop the NE. I don't want to whip this city, so the best tile is the unimproved horse 1/2/1.


Do we need both our sentry chariots for the YM border, or should we send this northern one to check on the armies of TBSJ and dtay?


I dunno what dtay will use Leibniz for - looks like he's already got education (so he might have bulbed it this morning before I logged in) and is on his way to liberalism. If we had popped a Great Engineer before he got education we were going on a Taj-run, but theres no chance of that here... Looks like we're down CS, Paper and Education and we're up Feudalism, Alphabet, Calender, Archery, HBR, Iron Working. So we're still ahead, right?


At this point half the world is in Caste and/or Bureau.


On the chain-irrigation front we have six workers at Peterloo to get the first farm up and running next turn and the second on t144 (this is important as Konig needs to grow quickly to pump great people in our golden age and not starve). We'll have a couple of workers at Gallipoli who will be joined by a spare from down south to prepare the chain up to Agincourt by t146. We're wasting a couple of turns moving, but I'm generally pretty happy with this plan.


In Agincourt itself we're bumping against the health cap now, so is it worth building a garden? Also does chaining irrigation to the city give it the fresh water bonus? Edit: if we can sort out the health trouble we could grow Agincourt to size 15 without it starving to get the GPs out, hmmm dunno if it's worth the risk. I think we need to build that temple first don't we?


Demos and power

I've been moving our army back west slowly to avoid unit support costs. We will have ten axes, three spears and four bows in Peterloo on t145 if we continue to go slow. Alternatively we could get another five axes and five bows at a cost of five gold. I think the former will be plenty though - Mack probably isn't building units again until he hits Guilds (if then).

[Fintourist]

Finally back at home! (and able to log in etc.)

Peterloo now has its library along with 55 hammers of overflow. What next? It could build a market (it's not going to be that good a commerce city though), or a monastery for the culture (Mack can build culture now though, so I doubt we're getting the corn via culture), A courthouse would be handy if we grow the city big on the farms, or we can take advantage of vassalage to get some 2-promo cats or Wellys, or it could build a longbow?

Originally I indeed intended the city to build Monastery next. With 2 dyes tiles that +10 % bonus is not completely useless. Without Monastery we have no chance to control that corn tile, with Monastery mack needs to improve his culture production and we will soon have caste artists that we can also use for trying to win that tile. Giving the tile up and choosing a military build is not bad either of course. LB to deter aggression from mack or cat for our own aggression are both solid choices. Hmmm.....

Nuremburg grew, but annoyingly doesn't have a tile to work because Om stole all the labour to chop the NE. I don't want to whip this city, so the best tile is the unimproved horse 1/2/1.

Actually I think this is a perfect moment to whip that longbow. Ichabod is increasing his power and we want to ensure that his focus stays away from us. The sole purpouse of Nuremburg was securing our other cities in the island and having one CG I/II longbow in the city sounds solid.

Do we need both our sentry chariots for the YM border, or should we send this northern one to check on the armies of TBSJ and dtay?

I think sending 1 sentry north is fine.

I dunno what dtay will use Leibniz for - looks like he's already got education (so he might have bulbed it this morning before I logged in) and is on his way to liberalism. If we had popped a Great Engineer before he got education we were going on a Taj-run, but theres no chance of that here...

Yeah, Leibniz was surely used for an Education bulb. Dtay has lot of money saved and I estimate that Lib falls eot 146. Just a very rough estimate.. Consequently I don't think that we want to run any engineers in Agincourt. We would need to start teching Nationalism pretty much now and count on that low-odds engineer if we want to win Taj.. So no..

Looks like we're down CS, Paper and Education and we're up Feudalism, Alphabet, Calender, Archery, HBR, Iron Working. So we're still ahead, right?

Yeah, beaker-wise we will be a lot behind the moment dtay land's Liberalism and he has a probably Taj-GA coming too. However, in terms of having useful techs we are not really behind yet and in the long-term we should be ok. Once we enjoy our own 2 GAs and do our own bulb plays I don't think we will really be behind technologically and it all comes down to who manages to get more land most easily. (which unfortunately is our biggest problem in this game)

On the chain-irrigation front we have six workers at Peterloo to get the first farm up and running next turn and the second on t144 (this is important as Konig needs to grow quickly to pump great people in our golden age and not starve). We'll have a couple of workers at Gallipoli who will be joined by a spare from down south to prepare the chain up to Agincourt by t146. We're wasting a couple of turns moving, but I'm generally pretty happy with this plan.

Yeah, the priorities that we agreed on during our last chats are still actual and that micro sounds solid. Unfortunately König and Nuremberg need to work couple of times unimproved tiles, but that's really a minor cost compared to the benefits that we are targeting.

In Agincourt itself we're bumping against the health cap now, so is it worth building a garden? Also does chaining irrigation to the city give it the fresh water bonus? Edit: if we can sort out the health trouble we could grow Agincourt to size 15 without it starving to get the GPs out, hmmm dunno if it's worth the risk. I think we need to build that temple first don't we?

Garden is kind of a shitty UB, but Agincourt actually could really use some spare health, because we are depending on our current trades there.. I don't think I want to grow it to size 15 because:
a) we are already in a rush if we want that because we also need to have our food box full.
b) I want to get BoP 1/2 sizes bigger. (giving the fish to BoP soon)

I've been moving our army back west slowly to avoid unit support costs. We will have ten axes, three spears and four bows in Peterloo on t145 if we continue to go slow. Alternatively we could get another five axes and five bows at a cost of five gold. I think the former will be plenty though - Mack probably isn't building units again until he hits Guilds (if then).

I like the approach! Mack is not going to attack when our peace runs out.


I've been thinking about our GP production and I'm wondering if pushing for Economics GM merchant would be a good target? Economics also enables free market civic, which is a valuable target on its own and obviously Guilds is also on the tech path, which is practical. I don't say we are going to get it if other contenders are going for it. We are not the first ones launching GAs and e.g. if Pindicooter/mackoti go after the same target we might be too slow.

In practice this would mean that of our 4 GPs:
2 will be used for 2nd GA
1 bulbs part of Education
1 runs a trade mission to support our teching (how much did you calculate that we would get from Ichabod's Stray Geese?)

I'll type more stuff later..

EDIT: 1 more thing. Am I interpreting correctly that Commodore did not open OBs and Lewwyn has not got the offer yet?

[Old Harry]

Originally I indeed intended the city to build Monastery next. With 2 dyes tiles that +10 % bonus is not completely useless. Without Monastery we have no chance to control that corn tile, with Monastery mack needs to improve his culture production and we will soon have caste artists that we can also use for trying to win that tile. Giving the tile up and choosing a military build is not bad either of course. LB to deter aggression from mack or cat for our own aggression are both solid choices. Hmmm.....

Well its going to be a commerce city, so feel free to change it if you want. I think Mack will build culture to stop us taking the tile, but if we can get to 100 culture first and pump a bunch of points into that tile then who knows what happens... Also future builds in Cannae and Agincourt could perhaps be Monasteries?

Actually I think this is a perfect moment to whip that longbow.

Okay, sounds good.

Consequently I don't think that we want to run any engineers in Agincourt. We would need to start teching Nationalism pretty much now and count on that low-odds engineer if we want to win Taj.. So no..

I think there is still a benefit in terms of flexibility - an engy can start a GA or build Notre Dame or something else for us.

b) I want to get BoP 1/2 sizes bigger. (giving the fish to BoP soon)

In that case we can give it the fish this turn - I was wondering how to slow Agincourt anyway...

I've been thinking about our GP production and I'm wondering if pushing for Economics GM merchant would be a good target? Economics also enables free market civic, which is a valuable target on its own and obviously Guilds is also on the tech path, which is practical. I don't say we are going to get it if other contenders are going for it. We are not the first ones launching GAs and e.g. if Pindicooter/mackoti go after the same target we might be too slow.

Free market did very well for Plako in PB8, so this sounds very good to me.

In practice this would mean that of our 4 GPs:
2 will be used for 2nd GA
1 bulbs part of Education
1 runs a trade mission to support our teching (how much did you calculate that we would get from Ichabod's Stray Geese?)

1500 gold, possibly more if he builds a harbour or we grow Agincourt bigger... I'd like to get a prophet for a shrine too, that would be worth nearly 30gpt straight away, and keep rising with a Bank and Wall St...

EDIT: 1 more thing. Am I interpreting correctly that Commodore did not open OBs and Lewwyn has not got the offer yet?

I think that's right. I'm off out for the evening now, so can you look at Agi/BoP, Peterloo and Nuremburg and send the chariot out to explore?

[Fintourist]

Well its going to be a commerce city, so feel free to change it if you want. I think Mack will build culture to stop us taking the tile, but if we can get to 100 culture first and pump a bunch of points into that tile then who knows what happens... Also future builds in Cannae and Agincourt could perhaps be Monasteries?

I'll think about this still for a while. I guess market in Agi is better, and maybe Grocer in Cannae?

Consequently I don't think that we want to run any engineers in Agincourt. We would need to start teching Nationalism pretty much now and count on that low-odds engineer if we want to win Taj.. So no..

I think there is still a benefit in terms of flexibility - an engy can start a GA or build Notre Dame or something else for us.

I guess I forgot to finish my thoughts in this section, but yeah, getting engy is of course not bad.

1500 gold, possibly more if he builds a harbour or we grow Agincourt bigger... I'd like to get a prophet for a shrine too, that would be worth nearly 30gpt straight away, and keep rising with a Bank and Wall St...

Yeah, I've been wondering if shrine is so much better than a Great Merchant, that we want to build cheap temples in order to get a low-odds Prophet.. I guess it makes sense.

EDIT: 1 more thing. Am I interpreting correctly that Commodore did not open OBs and Lewwyn has not got the offer yet?

I think that's right. I'm off out for the evening now, so can you look at Agi/BoP, Peterloo and Nuremburg and send the chariot out to explore?

Sure, I'll take care of the rest. Hmm, about Commodore, maybe offer him straight OBs?

[Fintourist]

FYI, based on civstats, fireworks in the PB8 continent have started. Pindicooter have taken 2 cities from Nakor. Let's hope Nakor was more awake than m_h and stronger than slowcheetah. If this world makes any sense, both should be true, but everything in this game has just been catastrophal so far..

I'll log in later to check the WW, average power drop and end our turn.