[SPOILERS] JR4 tries his luck in PB 37

[RefSteel]

And more importantlyamusingly, here's my Turn 200 Review:

#1:  Emperor GermanJoey of the Klackons:

From the historical archives:  The declaration of war on the Mrrshans

Aggressive Industrialist, leading in Fleet Strength, Population, Planets, Production, and Total Power.  GermanJoey's Klackons recently triggered GNN's third size warning - the one where "if their expansion is not contained, they will soon control the galaxy" - and considering his current Fleet Strength, there's a pretty good chance his expansion won't be contained!  He's still Affable toward us, with a Non-Aggression Pact and a fully-mature trade agreement at the maximum level our (much smaller) empire can afford, but we're well aware that he could at any time decide to cancel the Pact, and the first we would know of it would be when we see his doom fleets with their high strategic speed arriving at our worlds.  The Klackons are in full runaway mode here, so far ahead of us that we aren't even bothering to spy on them except to occasionally check their tech and see just how far ahead they are.

#2:  Emperor dtay of the Psilons:

From the historical archives:  The declaration of war on the Darloks

Honorable Technologist, leading in Tech, and second in every other category.  These would be utterly terrifying runaway Psilons - especially with dtay's "Honorable" personality, which as anyone who has ever played Orion knows, will not stop him from declaring war without notice or cause - if the Klackons weren't even scarier already.  Relations have actually been mostly positive since first contact in spite of a token brush war early on and our lack of a trade agreement, but they've recently dropped to the low end of neutral, and without a trade offer (which might have negative consequences if he's preparing to declare war anyway) we have no way to repair them.  The Psilons control nearly as many worlds as the Klackons, but they're arranged in a weirdly long, thin pattern, and dtay has built much less infrastructure on his planets than GermanJoey, with the result that the Psilons' tech lead may not last much longer:  The Klackons might overtake them there through the sheer power of their economy.  Still, if dtay can keep his war machine rolling and build up the colonies he has, his Psilons might yet become an even scarier runaway than the Klacks.

#3:  Emperor Krill of the Meklar:

From the historical archives: The first Meklar message to the Psilons

Ruthless Industrialist, third in Population, Planets, and Total Power.  Also usually third in Production, but apperas to be further back at the moment because of some unsustainable planetary reserve spending by other races (including us).  Like everyone else but the bugs and the brains, the Meklar would have no chance at this point considering the gap in number of planets between them and the leaders, except you can never write off the Meklar:  They can get more out of any worlds they have than anyone else in the game ... except for the Klackons, who also have more planets than anybody else, in case you had forgotten.  We have a long-standing trade agreement with Krill, and relations are at the high end of Relaxed.  We haven't even bothered asking for a Non-Aggression Pact because the Meklar are on the far side of the galaxy and don't actually have the Range tech needed to reach our worlds short of an alliance with somebody else.  There's no way Krill's Meklar actually win this thing unless dtay and GermanJoey get into a hot war and start sporing each other's planets into the dust, but he could definitely sneak in if they do that!

#4:  Emperor Gavagai of the Sakkra:

From the historical archives:  The declaration of war on the Alkari

Erratic Expansionist, ahead of us in Planets and Total Power but very much within reach.  We have a trade agreement in place which has actually managed to mature, but haven't bothered trying for a Non Aggression Pact since he could just erratically declare war on us at any point anyway, as he has done earlier against half the players in the game (including us) without actually improving his position substantially.  We have a bunch of fleets basically pinned on our border with the Sakkra, not to mention worlds with big stacks of missile bases, by the threat that he could declare on us again.  For this reason, we were considering anticipating his next wardec with one of our own, but decided to go after the Alkari instead and haven't yet managed to get out of that conflict.  Our relations with the Sakkra have held steady at Wary ever since our peace treaty following the war.

#5:  Emperor JR4 (with questionable advice from RefSteel) of the Humans:

From the secret Imperial records room:  Argument in secret council for an attack on the State of Zijin colony - an attack that we ultimately chose not to carry out

Pacifistic Industrialist, well ahead of last place on most or all of the bar graphs, but behind four out of five other races in Planets, Population, and Total Power.  We expanded well at first, but failed to defend some of our planets near Sakkra space adequately, and had one conquered and two glassed as a result.  We might have been able to overcome that, but with or without it, we couldn't overcome our position trapped in a tight little corner between runaway Klackons and runaway Psilons, both of whom have expanded right through other races on the other side of the galaxy.  We've used our Human diplomatic bonus to good effect, remaining safe so far from the runaways - also known as our nearest neighbors - but our bonus obviously won't help with an actual win, since the Klackons (and Psilons, for that matter) have way more votes than they need for a High Council veto.

#6:  Emperor Dark Savant of the Alkari:

From the historical archives:  The reaction to our attack on the planet Mist

Xenophobic Militarist, deep in last place - among the races still alive at least - in practically every category.  Relations have been stuck on the bottom end of Furious ever since we destroyed Mist's missile bases and launched transports to take it, and the Alkari ambassador still hasn't returned.  We've conquered a total of three Alkari colonies, and glassed another too small and too deep in his territory for us to hold (now recently rebuilt) and at one point wiped out about a quarter of his starfleet in a single turn, but now he's keeping at least a third of his current starfleet tied up defending from and threatening us because he either can't see the bigger potential threats from other directions or doesn't care since he's had no chance at victory in a long time anyway.

#7:  Emperor C of the Darloks:

From the historical archives:  Serving notice to Bulrathi neighbors

Erratic Diplomat, exterminated by the Psilons in 2497.  In spite of a handful of questionable moves, the Darloks played a generally strong game overall, falling sooner than the Alkari only because of proximity to the runaway Psilons.  They were successful in the two early wars they started with erratic declarations:  One against the Bulrathi, on which the Psilons ultimately capitalized better than the Darloks could, and the other against the hapless Mrrshans, which probably is a big part of the reason - along with the Meklar's failure to capitalize on that - for the Klackons' current position as runaways.

#8:  Emperor Donovan Zoi of the Mrrshans:

From the historical archives:  Commiserating with the Bulrathi

Pacifistic Expansionist, exterminated by the Klackons in 2457.  Donovan Zoi's legacy is much stronger than his empire's showing, as he took over basically a One Planet Empire when the Mrrshan homeworld revolted (possibly triggered by Darlok saboteurs) in the mid 2380s, resulting in the overthrow of its Pacifistic Technologist Emperor Ventessel.  The latter had managed to get two early colonies glassed by Darlok fleets and appeared to have lost interest in ruling the empire altogether almost before he took the helm of his civilization.  Donovan Zoi did his best with the mess he inherited, and even managed to keep his people alive longer than the Bulrathi, but there was only so much he could do.

#9:  Emperor Yuri of the Bulrathi:

From the historical archives:  Accepting the largest trade agreement the Bulrathi economy could support at that (or any) time

Pacifistic Ecologist, exterminated by the Psilons in 2449.  Like Donovan Zoi of the Mrrshans, Yuri came to his throne only after the previous emperor was overthrown by rebellion.  The rebels, after presumably getting their start due to a cruel random event and/or Darlok saboteurs inciting revolt, had spread across half the empire by 2377, when they overthrew the old emperor CML.  An Erratic Diplomat who was never actually seen in person by his people, CML himself suffered from the aggressive expansion of the Psilons and Darloks into his space, including an early brush war in which the Darloks glassed one of his colonies.  Yuri, for his part, led the Bulrathi well and made good use of his people's ground combat bonus, counter-invading and re-conquering two of the planets the Psilons had taken in their war against him, but his defeat at their hands was inevitable by the time the war began.

[JR4]

So, with Krill on vacation it could easily be another day or two before t201 is up.

I will take a few overview screenshots next turn. It`s always good to get a clearer picture of the geopolitics.

Also, I thought that Iron for Iron and similar offers were explicitly forbidden in the setup. Iirc, dtay hasn`t bothered to send us any offers at all (except reoffering a couple of Fish for Fish deals) so he`s probably pretty indifferent to us. A high power rating is what we`re relying on right now. We just have to keep producing units. A lot of units.

An attack on Gavagai looks hard to set up. He`s got naval superiority on the western sea. We`d need to beat him to Steam Power or Combustion in order to have a good chance of making progress. We`re pretty much tied up in our never ending war with DS for the time being.

[RefSteel]

I will take a few overview screenshots next turn. It`s always good to get a clearer picture of the geopolitics.

Cool - thanks!

Also, I thought that Iron for Iron and similar offers were explicitly forbidden in the setup.

Yikes - I completely missed that - I just assumed it was "no diplo except in the form of trade deals" - so, checking the setup thread:

* No using trade window to communicate (e.g. using letters or numbers in a way that could be interpreted something else than a real trade offer)

Strictly read, that would make even fish-for-fish deals illegal (which would mean that dtay and GermanJoey [EDIT: And the various global lurkers who saw our discussion of it] also completely missed this rule) as it's using the trade window to communicate and is intended to communicate something other than the actual trade offer.  The use of letters and numbers specifically (e.g. using the first letters of resources offered to spell out a message and/or something like Iron + 5g for Iron + 5g to mean "let's declare war on our mutual neighbor in 5 turns) wasn't contemplated, but the rule as written is broader than that, with the letters/numbers included just as an example.  I'm embarrassed that I missed that earlier. [EDIT: The truth is, I suspect the posted rule is misleading and generally not being followed, having been blindly copy-pasted from an older game. Deals like fish-for-fish or sheep-for-sheep to mean peace and iron-for-iron to mean joint war are so commonplace that it's ridiculous to specify "using letters and numbers" in the example but not to mention the kinds of deals that are most commonly made. Not sure what to do about that at this point though....]

Iirc, dtay hasn`t bothered to send us any offers at all (except reoffering a couple of Fish for Fish deals) so he`s probably pretty indifferent to us. A high power rating is what we`re relying on right now. We just have to keep producing units. A lot of units.

I'm with you there.  On the other hand, there's absolutely a way to signal our desire for continuing friendship that's completely and unquestionably within the rules:  Just offer him Open Borders.  (He's the only non-Ethiopian civ with whom we don't have them right now.)  With his innumerable cities, he must want the trade routes; the risk would be that he would accept to scout out our defenses before declaring war.

An attack on Gavagai looks hard to set up. He`s got naval superiority on the western sea. We`d need to beat him to Steam Power or Combustion in order to have a good chance of making progress. We`re pretty much tied up in our never ending war with DS for the time being.

All true except for the part about Combustion:  In RtR, you need Artillery (and one of Oil or Uranium) to build transports and destroyers.  Fighting Gavagai and Dark Savant at the same time would be awful; I don't think we can consider a move to liberate our ancient western island holdings at this point until (when and if) Dark Savant is out of the game.

[JR4]

And we finally have a new turn! Except that we`re still in a turn split so I`ll probably play tomorrow at the usual time. Krill played a.. 1 minute turn!? And then another pretty quick turn right away. Well, it looks like he`s got too much on his hands already.

I seem to recall something from the setup thread about the only non-real deals allowed were Fish for Fish deals only (so no Iron for Iron deals). The fact that both Joey and dtay sent those offers back to us is a strong indication that they consider the deals offered legal.

The question of whether to offer an Open Borders deal to dtay or not is a tricky one. I can see arguments either way. We would certainly get a lot of commerce if he were to accept but the huge disparity in EP spending make those OBs less valuable than otherwise. Hmm, I`m slightly leaning against making the offer for the time being as dtay doesn`t know which units our army consists of.

Oh, and the fact that Combustion takes longer to research does buy us some time at least. Well, it`s really just delaying our problems if one or both of the big powers build a ton of Transports and Destroyers while we`re a lot of techs away from doing the same. If I were playing alone, going directly for Combustion (without knowing about the required Artillery) is the kind of play that could lead to a quick disaster. It`s kind of weird playing an unfamiliar mod of a familiar game. It sort of feels like doing an expedition into uncharted territory!

[RefSteel]

Aha - you're right of course; I'd forgotten. Digging quickly into the tech thread:

This is a fair question about AI diplo. For example, I was under impression that it our rules do not prohibit stuff like fish-for-fish offers to signal general friendliness but do prohibit offering a specific amount of cash to communicate at which turn you wanna declare a war against a common enemy, for example. Are we all on the same page here?

My view has always been that the diplo screen is purely for trading but fish for fish trades etc were the limit. No renaming units to give messages, no using numbers to convey timing. Demiliterizing a front isn't diplo, it's a strategic decision to reallocate resources in a manner that hopefully yields more positive results, eg from killing someone else. So +1 to what Gav said.

I couldn't find any further responses, so this was presumably established as the rule by "silence is assent." I still don't think this is well explained for new players, but it's good to know we're clearly within the established rules so far, and I agree that we should restrict ourselves to fish/fish and actual trades.

Also note that combustion itself doesn't take longer to research; it's just that the ships themselves are unlocked at Artillery instead. In fact, you can get them without Combustion if you either tech to ... Fission? (I'll have to check; I rarely play that far into the late game) for Uranium or receive Oil or Uranium in trade from someone who does have the needed tech and resource. I know what you mean about uncharted territory though! It would almost be easier to learn a mod like FFH2 that changes everything since there'd be fewer natural assumptions that turn out wrong.

[EDIT: Krill's one-minute T200 is also very strange, considering that the turn was waiting on him for so long. Anything he could do in one minute, he could surely have directed lurkers to do in his thread, even if the directions included e.g. "check to see if we're at war or if there's an enemy stack on tile x; if so, then log out and let me play it later on instead of following the other directions."]

[JR4]

TURN 201

The last turn of our Golden Age. Getting Steel unlocked Drydocks so we`re building a few of those. Also, our first Cannon finished in Borte. It joined the rest of our SW collateral units between the city and Oghul Qaimish. Buddhism is spreading along nicely. Another 3 Ottoman cities got our faith now.

   

After the screenshots were taken, Bayan Khutugh swapped to a Ship of the Line as we have to keep Dark Savant at bay. A Great Scientist was born in the city and is on its way to the mainland. It`s in Kokejin now on a Galleon. How do you feel about getting an Academy for Borte? Note Joey`s Galleons are positioned to take a swing at dtay`s vulnerable city NE of Shkodai. Joey and dtay signed peace 9 turns ago, just sayin... Unacycle has a single Longbow defending. Dtay has 3 scouting Frigates (S of Tularean Forest, NE of Mandukhai and N of Bayan Khutugh).

Otherwise it was a very quiet turn. Gavagai`s stack grew even more. He shows 2 turns to Rifling. Also, he strengthened his naval stack W of D-mishi and more units are on their way (but no Galleons visible). It`s a bit scary, but our mainland port cities are pretty well defended for the time being.

[JR4]

Graphs and demos: Researching Alphabet sent our gnp through the roof!

[JR4]

And finally, as requested, a few overview screenshots of the world. Is there anything in particular lurkers want a screenshot of?

[RefSteel]

Good call suggesting an Academy in Borte: I think the GS would bulb Scientific Method, which we won't need for a long time, and we could use all the multipliers we can get for our current max-science run with our giant gold reserve. It's also another example of making the cities we've got as strong as we can since we don't have any (realistic) prospects of getting more.

And finally, as requested, a few overview screenshots of the world. Is there anything in particular lurkers want a screenshot of?

Cool - thanks for the screenies! And I can't speak for all lurkers, but I suspect that any pictures of the area where GJ-dtay war is going on, especially if we happen to have vision on some of the stacks involved, would go over really well with more readers than just me!

Any idea what Dark Savant's ships of the line are doing right now, by the way?

[JR4]

TURN 202

Last turn brought a lot of drama as civstats told us. Joey razed two Zulu cities, dealing a blow to dtay`s chances of winning this game. As expected, one of the cities was Unacycle, the city right NE of Shkodai. It`s what I would call a good filler, losing Angle would have been far worse of course. Joey`s units are scattered in our lands. There is a Rifle and 2 Knights plus that scouting Chariot so it looks likely that at least another city will fall next turn.
   

Actually, this turn started with a trade offer. Dtay offered Open Borders! Again, it was a difficult decision. In the end the offer was... accepted. (I didn`t have vision on the war zone when considering the offer). So, our beaker output at 100 % science went up to 1500+. Next turn our Great Scientist should add nicely to that. I`m really unsure whether accepting the offer was the right thing to do. Yesterday I was leaning against it. We`re 1 turning Printing Press even at 0 % science (we`re researching at full speed) and we might be able to 1 turn Replaceable Parts the turn after! It looks like our Oxford gamble is about to pay off. No way that Dark Savant can keep that research rate outside of a Golden Age. Annoyingly, he still gets a long GA because of the MoM.

Gavagai`s stack split up this turn. Also, his Galleons guarded by some Frigates moved closer to DS. They are able to hit Vertigo next turn.

Sugabala, Bayan Khutugh and Muqa started Drydocks. I feel that we need to get them up and running asap. Once completed they`d give us a big advantage over DS on the seas. Also, no sign of his Sotl near Fountain Head. They`re probably sitting a tile behind the city.