[spoilers] Commodore: Worse than Toku, it's Giggles of Siam!

[Commodore]

Okay, so I've been thinking about the narrow little strip we're apparently on with the Zulu, and I think it's pretty important to send the southern scout past them eastward, as well as double back post-haste with the northern scout to check out beyond those peaks to the north. I've rolled a looot of Big and Small, and the way I see it, given the cold antarctic to our south, we have four possible scenarios here. Enjoy my paint skills:



A. The Big Snake. In this case, there is landmass to east of them, and north beyond the peaks there is a lot of land for us, too. In this scenario, we can avoid direct confrontation with the scary-early Zulus led by competent generals. I like this. Our objectives here are mostly just to secure a strong border, and then push north, confident that Cyndicootliem would rather expand in the Not Pyscopath Pro/Cre direction. Ideally, Brick is on their other border and slaughters them all, and we eat Catcheetah. Close second landmasses count here.

B. Zulu Trap. In this one, we've got the mainland advantage, and they're on a peninsula. This scenario means that they're a bit desperate, depending on how big their section is, whereas we want to expand north while keeping them bottled. This is a tricky one; although we're nicely positioned to win long-term, we'd need to beware a desperation all-in. Unstable, might need to go Total War.

C. Khmer Trap. In this setup, it's us on the short end of the stick. See above for the calculus, although what we do know is that we have five-six adequate city spots already so the all-in can definitely be around Ballin' Pants time. In this case, we need to ensure we get the lion's share of the land in between us just to keep up.

D. There Can Be Only One. We're in Australia. Scooter sees karma as this time he's not sharing it with a time-strapped newbie. I see karma as I get to face impis. Hardcore Total War, winner of the duel hopes that other people have managed to screw themselves. A Spanish man with a Scottish accent trains us, decapitation is the only way to kill for sure.

[Thoth]

Oh ho! This changes everything.

So then! Like I said, more in-depth stuff on the opposition as we meet them. Looks like our first contact is our most dangerous rival, the dreaded Zulus.

Scooter (solid, metagamer) and Pindicator (micromanger, streaky) as Hayuna Cupac (Financial, Industrious) of the Zulu (Agriculture, Hunting)

I know Scooter, so I am certain that a lot of spinning has taken place in-thread to the effect that these guys aren't the #1 seed in this hoedown. This is of course ridiculous, given that they are probably the best combination of players in the game driving the second best leader/civ combo.

HC is an excellent leader here, despite the four other Industrious. The real key to winning wonder races post-Pyramids is tech rate, and on Big and Small, Financial is still king. The riverside nerf is annoying but having coastal tiles actually worth working is huge, and on every other cottage/commerce resource tile Fin still rocks. Adding the cheap bank is just rubbing salt in the wound. Given the lack of reliance on a SE, the Pyramids are less attractive for HC, so Stonehenge, Oracle, and GLH gambits are all more likely to be pursued. Although I'm sure they'd rather be the Mortius-endorsed Ragnar instead.

I was hoping we'd start close to these guys. At turn 0 they we're my pick as the team most likely to turn into a runaway. Having them close makes it easier to reign them in.

But maybe not quite this close given that Impis are a royal PITA.

The Zulus are, of course, one of the most fun civilizations to play. The ikhanda is a very small boost, but it is noticeable and its not like barracks aren't going everywhere eventually anyway. Impi, even without the easy shock access from Aggressive, can royally wreck the unprepared with that vicious 2-move/Mobility combo. Hunting starts have been buffed, bringing an already-good civilization up to "excellent" now.

Agreed, I like the Zulu civ but Ikhandas are more expensive than regular barracks which hurts a non Agg leader. I'd much rather have HC of the Zulu as a neighbour than say, Monte of the Zulu. Still, we might just find ourselves getting some use out of Protective after all.

Finally, the players: Scooter is a smart guy who really ought to have won one of these before now, with a particular strength in metagaming and a weakness in the details at times; not immediately, but around turn 50 he can tend to play a little sloppy. Pindicator is an excellent partner, his micro-oriented logistics merging well with Scooter's better metagame grasp (although Pin's metagame is by no means weak). For a little extra "fun" they are being actively dedlurked by Noble Helium, who in terms of pure game mechanics is in contention as the best player on the site. Oh, and who also irrationally hates me personally with all the intensity a thirteen-year-old who feels slighted can muster.

NH also lurked FFH XI...so he's aware of my opinions regarding close neighbours.

So, um, how do we not die? Make no mistake, the reaction in Zululand is going to be a mite bit dismayed to find out we're close neighbors. And given the land forms, either this is the weirdest snakey continent ever or we're kind of on a peninsula, the Zulu blocking mainland access...which means there is a very highlander scenario here; there can be only one. Well, the one thing all three (or four, if Cyneheard is dedlurking too) players share is a certain fundamental caution. Unfortunately, they are aware of this tendency and will be working to correct it. Even so. Copper is going to be critical...if they can secure it without us being able to build axes in turn, might as well pack it up not.[quote]

[quote]I'm actually noodling on the thought of going for Wheel before BW, if we need the roads anyway and the worker can profitably use the extra time. Still have time to think about it.

We'll have Ag at eot 8, bronze will take 15 turns. Wheel will take 9 (8 with beaker overflow from BW I think).

I think Bronze after Ag is pretty much mandatory here. Even without the close neighbours Chopping and an early 1 pop whip or two lets us get out a lot of early hammers.

Sthing like:

eot 15: Worker finishes
turn 16: Start building worker 2 in Cap working Corn. Worker moves towards corn.
Turn 17: Start Farming corn.
Turn 20: Swap to Warrior in cap (worker at 20/60h) 2/22 food in box
Turn 21: 5/22 in box. Corn farm completes
Turn 22: 11/22 in box. Worker moves
Turn 23: 17/22 in box. Bronze complete eot. Worker either moves or idles.
Turn 24: Size 2. 1/24 food. 4/15h into warrior. Resume work on Worker at 8 food/hammers per turn. Worker starts chopping (alt: Worker starts Quarry). Revolt to Slavery
Turn 26: 36/60h into worker-->whip. If we chop with the first worker the chop would complete this turn and the chop does little to accelerate production at this point. We'll have 13 h overflow from the worker build anyway which is enough to complete the warrior at eot 27. We'll need 4t to grow back to size 2 (growth will happen at eot 30, marble quarry finishes on t31).
Turn 30: 2nd worker completes it's first chop bringing us to ~25/15 hammers on Warrior #2
t31: Wheel done at eot (I think). Marble quarry completes and gets worked. . Start settler with 10h overflow from Warrior. Workers move to chop. Chops finish up t34 getting us a settler eot 35 and Woodview Lawn settled t37 with a road connection and two workers available to start increasing tile yields.

Aggression is called for; we're in duel mode until either we get a secure border holding at the very least stone and ivory, or one of us dies. Here's the battlefield, ladies and gentlemen:

That grasshill 2 W of the Gold looks like a very tempting Pink dot if we can grab it with our second Settler. We'll want Archery sooner rather than later if we're going this route. Cheap Pro Archers onna hill are a PITA and we already have Masonry for some cheap Walls.

Copper. Copper. Copper. We want it and if possible we want to deny it.

Thoth, when you're looking around mind snapping a shot of where their scout goes? Need to know if its possible to race them for potential southern huts.

I haven't logged into the game yet. I don't actually have the Password.

[Commodore]

Posted password above, 'tis Basium (used to typing it in from mailing it in while getting pillaged into the ground by plako).

[Commodore]

By the way, Pindicooter went up in a tech...given Fin and location and timing, probably not a pop but them researching Fishing. Because:


Cindy, meanwhile, doubles back.


Helpful midline label, by the way. Need that hill, you're right.

[Thoth]

I checked out the game. I added a couple of signs to the map

Pop growth for Scooticator as well: They have at least one FP tile first ring (possibly an inner ring Oasis but probably FP).

They're currently working 2 1f/2h tiles and are not on a PH. (actually, looking at the tile bleed, they're on flat riverside grass)

And they have no Hunting or Ag resource (other than possibly dry rice) in their BFC. (worker first with land food and mining/bronze before Fishing is usually stronger than Fishing/wb if the land food is 5 or more food once improved.) Fishing first gets them some nice commerce once they've got some WBs out. An early Oracle run might be in the cards for them. They should have the beakers to get to Bw/Pottery in time for a solid shot at an MC sling which is a very strong play for an Ind leader. And Colossus rocks the house with a B&S map. And they have a coastal capital. :evilgrin:

That's a very strong economy play for them. Let's hope they fall prey to temptation. :D

It's a bit of tundra and then water to our immediate south. A bit more land and then tundra to the immediate south of Scooticator. Not sure what we've got to our north, but it's looking like the sooner we liberate the Zulu people from the cruel hands of their current oppressors, the better.

[Commodore]

I checked out the game. I added a couple of signs to the map

Just a couple, eh?


Okay, some thoughts; looks like unless they have something truly insane to the east, we can go ahead an pencil in their first expansion: Grassland SE of the silk nets three shared clams, gold, silk, and lighthouseable lake. Plus it's heading towards us. I'm as confused as you are by the lack of worker-first, but I don't think Krill was counting clams as +5 food. Maybe grassland deer? Not sure if AH was judged too expensive. I'm sure they have their reasons, in any case. Alas, I doubt they're going to go for pure economy with us nearby.

Settling notes:
-The "c" under the western scout is kind of a Platonic Ideal Moai location, except for the complete lack of food (remember, alas, Great Salt Lake). However, one south of that is a remarkably secure location, almost as good a Moai spot, and picks up Crabs and shares sheep with Woodview Lawn for a fast startup.
-Continuing on, the "c" for sheep/stone is awesome short term, bad long-term, and definitely would be considered a pink dot. I'm okay with that, just sayin'.
-1S of the Midline Sign is a suspicious bare patch. Copper, horse, or iron?
-We really, really need there to be some food for the mammoth location, 'cause we are settling that.

Finally, micro problem:


Timing is really, really ugly here. Bronze Working comes in in 15 turns; the corn farm is done in 12. Now, there is a great little marble quarry we have the tech to make, but if we head over there, we're starting...yep, in 15 turns. Wheel frees things up for more efficient working movement, but at the cost of 9 extra turns to figuring out where copper is. We're next door to impis.

[regoarrarr]

You can't sail through 2 forts in a row I don't believe

[Commodore]

You can't sail through 2 forts in a row I don't believe

Actually, you can in Thoth's signage. Way I think about it is that you only send a ship through a fort next to water, so the lake qualifies. Not sure if we'd want that path (vs, say, just forting the plans tile 1E of the scout), but it is valid.

[Thoth]

I checked out the game. I added a couple of signs to the map

Just a couple, eh?

Okay, some thoughts; looks like unless they have something truly insane to the east, we can go ahead an pencil in their first expansion: Grassland SE of the silk nets three shared clams, gold, silk, and lighthouseable lake. Plus it's heading towards us. I'm as confused as you are by the lack of worker-first, but I don't think Krill was counting clams as +5 food. Maybe grassland deer? Not sure if AH was judged too expensive. I'm sure they have their reasons, in any case. Alas, I doubt they're going to go for pure economy with us nearby.

That's a solid city site for them for sure. It's also on flatland.

Not sure why they've chosen the opening they did. But it gives us the edge early. They're building a WB right now which will complete either turn 12 or 13 depending on whether or not they completed the opening scout/warrior build or swapped straight to WB on turn 7. In either event, their first worker won't be on the board until t22 at the earliest. We should have our second t26. That's a huge advantage in early tile development in our favour and it gets better if they build a second WB before their first worker. They'll be teching nicely and if we leave them alone, they may be a threat to do somthing silly and highly inconvenient like Oracling Fued.

OFC that depends on my assumption that they have an inner ring FP being correct. Did you notice what turn they got Fishing? Fishing is 64 B. At 9bpt (ie working a no commerce tile) Fishing would take 8t. With 10 bpt (working a FP) Fishing is 7 t. With 12 BPT (an Oasis) it's 6 t.

They did get a bit shafted if they don't have a 5 f land tile. Seafood starts without one of Mining or Fishing are *slow*.


I've been toying with the notion of an Axe rush. I *hate* the idea. It's way too risky and depends on our foes making some strategic mistakes. Which is a bad idea at the best of times and even worse given the caliber of our opponents. If they *do* make mistakes, we should certainly try to capitalize on them but *counting* on them making mistakes is suicide.

But some axes and spears as a choking operation might be enough to disrupt some fancy builder plans on their part, but it may not be in our best interests to disrupt those plans just yet. (unless we really have to)

Settling notes:
-The "c" under the western scout is kind of a Platonic Ideal Moai location, except for the complete lack of food (remember, alas, Great Salt Lake). However, one south of that is a remarkably secure location, almost as good a Moai spot, and picks up Crabs and shares sheep with Woodview Lawn for a fast startup.
[quote]

The desert hill site sucks for Moai. No food. It's a backfill site that will grow at a snail's pace until CS and chain irrigation. It'll be a decent enough midgame naval pump though once it has time to grow into some workshops/mines. Meh for commerce other than trs and and coast we work with free happy points.

1 s is a much stronger site but it (and any other inner sea cities we build) can't build ships. LH/Harbour/WBs yes. But the sea isn't big enough for actual ships. Also the Sheep is Meadowview Lawn's only food resource and we may need that Sheep to help kickstart the Mastadon site. I'm really hoping there's some seafood in the fog down south.

[quote]
-Continuing on, the "c" for sheep/stone is awesome short term, bad long-term, and definitely would be considered a pink dot. I'm okay with that, just sayin'.

It'll be indefensible in the late game without naval superiority but I think it's worth a settler at some point. Just no Wonders.

Most of the city locations in the east are later propositions I think. Our immediate goal is to eliminate our neighbours. Cats and Peace Mammoths with axe and spear support will do the trick if we can get them on the board in sufficient numbers fast enough. Any cities we settle between now and

-1S of the Midline Sign is a suspicious bare patch. Copper, horse, or iron?

Quite possibly. We'll find out soonish.

-We really, really need there to be some food for the mammoth location, 'cause we are settling that.

Worst case we settle 2N of the Mammoths. Shares the Sheep with Woodview and needs farms in order to grow and will generally suck as a city but it'll do ok and we need the Mammoths to build our Peace Elephants. ray: Let's hope there's some seafood down south so we can get a decent city going.

Finally, micro problem:


Timing is really, really ugly here. Bronze Working comes in in 15 turns; the corn farm is done in 12. Now, there is a great little marble quarry we have the tech to make, but if we head over there, we're starting...yep, in 15 turns. Wheel frees things up for more efficient working movement, but at the cost of 9 extra turns to figuring out where copper is. We're next door to impis.

We want Bronze for the Worker #2 whip and info on the Copper situation. Scootcator need Mining and BW. We just need BW.

And I'm fairly certain (feel free to prove me wrong ) that this:

eot 15: Worker finishes
turn 16: Start building worker 2 in Cap working Corn. Worker moves towards corn.
Turn 17: Start Farming corn.
Turn 20: Swap to Warrior in cap (worker at 20/60h) 2/22 food in box
Turn 21: 5/22 in box. Corn farm completes
Turn 22: 11/22 in box. Worker moves
Turn 23: 17/22 in box. Bronze complete eot. Worker either moves or idles.
Turn 24: Size 2. 1/24 food. 4/15h into warrior. Resume work on Worker at 8 food/hammers per turn. Worker starts chopping (alt: Worker starts Quarry). Revolt to Slavery
Turn 26: 36/60h into worker-->whip. If we chop with the first worker the chop would complete this turn and the chop does little to accelerate production at this point. We'll have 13 h overflow from the worker build anyway which is enough to complete the warrior at eot 27. We'll need 4t to grow back to size 2 (growth will happen at eot 30, marble quarry finishes on t31).
Turn 30: 2nd worker completes it's first chop bringing us to ~25/15 hammers on Warrior #2
t31: Wheel done at eot (I think). Marble quarry completes and gets worked. smile. Start settler with 10h overflow from Warrior. Workers move to chop. Chops finish up t34 getting us a settler eot 35 and Woodview Lawn settled t37 with a road connection and two workers available to start increasing tile yields.

Gets us more hammers and actual worker turns than Wheel first could. (Extra worker turns are due to the 30h Worker whip).
I'm not convinced that the above is the best micro plan we can do, but it looks pretty solid as a first pass.


Our early advantage is hammers (both from traits and from Scooticator's opening). Let's capitalize on that. We can found our second city by t37 at the latest. We should be able to have another pair of workers on the board by t43/44 and depending on where we spend our hammers either 3 cities and some netted (and worked) Crabs or 4 cities by the early 50s.

Techwise I'm currently thinking Ag/BW/Wheel/Fishing and then some combination of Pottery, AH and Archery next. Then either Writing/Sailing or vice versa. With an offshore island to colonize Sailing pays for it's self quite quickly, so I think it's worth slotting in earlyish. Math/Construction/HBR after that?

[Thoth]

You can't sail through 2 forts in a row I don't believe

I think the rule is: You can sail into any fort with water access.

Actually, you can in Thoth's signage. Way I think about it is that you only send a ship through a fort next to water, so the lake qualifies. Not sure if we'd want that path (vs, say, just forting the plans tile 1E of the scout), but it is valid.

Yeah, it's long term thinking based on us being isolated on our island. . Canals can be very handy at times, but they can wait for a bit.


Hmm. A canal to the southern sea is probably pointless but if the configuration: Water|Fort|City|Fort|Water allows Ship passage we could in theory do it.