As a French person I feel like it's my duty to explain strikes to you. - AdrienIer

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game discussion!

The following is a long ramble, largely to explain myself to me. Im not trying to convince anyone im right, just to explain my own thoughts. Id rather not debate whether im right (as this is meant as pure opinion, and meant to be opinion about my own feelings more than the state of the game), but i would like to know if people feel my reasoning is way off base. I don't want anything to change in response to this post.

So, playing nature, death, chaos hard games, I've been trying to understand why I don't like uncommon and rare spells, especially since there are so many cool ones, and ones that look very strong in a vacuum (like, every summon ever).

And I think the problem for me is this: common spells are available at a time when you need to survive, fend off early wars from maniacal and chaotic wizards. You realistically don't have time to get uncommons to do this, although if your first war is a little later, uncommons can help but rares can't.

Once you've survived the initial rushes you have two options - you can crush your opponent or you can consolidate and expand and focus on lairs/nodes. To me, this is the phase of the game where uncommons and rares should have the biggest impact. But, if you follow through and attack your opponent, chances are the same commons that let you survive are also going to let you conquer as well. And most of the best lair/node clearing spells are.. Highly synergistic combinations of common spells. Occasionally things like cockatrices give big increases when combined with focus magic, but the real power in that combination is focus magic. Uncommon and rare summons by definition don't defeat high end lairs/nodes, and even weaker node creatures often come in far too high numbers for your own summons to defeat without high casualties - which you can't support yet because you don't have enough skill and power income.

So you're back to using city troops. And most of the best buffs for city troops are common (mostly due to cost to benefit ratios since you want a lot of them). So your uncommon/rares don't help conquer enemies sijce you can already defeat them, and don't let you clear the map sugnifucantly faster than the troops you already have. What are you left with? Spells to advance your late game (taking on strong enemy wizards with powerful globals, hordes of city troops, and very rare summons). But for late game, you want your own very rares! Many times I look at my spell list and go 'is this worth the mana I could be saving to summon my first very rare creature or global? Or that I could use in a combat to support my powerful city troops?' And too many times, no matter how good the spell is (and I DO think the spells are very well thought out and balanced compared to other spell tiers) the answer is no. More city troops with common spell support are better.

Overall problem for me is that I can get magical weapon troops in such large quantities (when compared to uncommon/rare spells when they're first available), that its always better to focus there instead, which means mass buffs, which means common rarity buffs.

(Note: things like life city buffs, aura of majesty, and combat summon spells are all very effective uncommon and rare spells. But I never find myself missing any of those, whereas simple things like holy armor, focus magic, and eldritch/holy weapon I miss ALL THE TIME. My strongest impossible strategy is beastmen with 3-4 life books, and the rest retorts, followed very closely by 3 life, 2 sorcery books, and 7 retort picks.)

If anyone thought any of this rambling is justified AND a problem (I'm not sure it is at all, its mostly just a rambling), I think the solution is to increase the power difference between each spell rarity. Uncommons would increase to midway between current uncommon and rare tiers, rare would increase to current very rare level, and very rare would increase to superhero-demigod hero level. BUT I don't think that's a good solution at all because it would make city units largely obsolete at the rare tier of spells, which is completely contrary to how the game is designed; and very rare would make heroes obsolete (which I think is also against the nature of the mod.)


Super TLDR: the mod encourages large city based empires. Therefore the best spells will be those that support that playstyle. But for cost/reward efficiency, the best of that type of spell is common followed by very rare, which leaves uncommon/rare spells feeling quite a bit less useful, largely due to the resources available when those spells are most relevant. NOTE: The spells ARE well balanced and designed. They just get subsumed by other goals of the game and end up FEELING less important.
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You're playing Nature w/ mostly common summons and city troops, and yet aren't getting anything out of Transmute, Nature's Cures, or Land Linking? Or Black Prayer or Drain Power w/ Death? Summons are one thing, as they can be really expensive early, but not thinking those spells are a big deal makes me think that you're off base...

How often do you pick Sage Master? Or Specialist + Sage Master? That combo especially helps get uncommons and rares into play in the very early game. Another issue you might be having w/ uncommon/rares being less relevant is your heavy retort picking... the more retorts you pick, the less commons you start with and thus more commons you need to research before the uncommons and rares will show up in your Apprentice book. Less book picks also mean less uncommons and less rares to choose from when you finally get to them. I feel like it's really gambling with your late-game... If, say, with a 3 Nature 2 Death combo you get Stone Giant, Earthquake, and Famine as the 3 rares you can research, then yeah you're gonna feel like your Rare spells aren't doing anything for you that game. More books gives you more spells to sift through to find one that's actually useful for your situation.

That said, my most recent impossible win was also w/ 5 life and 7 retorts (Myrror/Trolls, SM, Specialist, Warlord, Archmage) and the only two times I cast summons were once for Unicorns (so Jafar would stop confusing my stupid trolls) and once right at the end of the game for Torin, so maybe I shouldn't talk... noidea
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FWIW, I agree your common spells will define your game more than any other factor.
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For these runs I've been doing 7-9 books of one realm, specialist, sagemaster, and one or two others to help with spellcasting (things like archmage or cult leader or conjuror). Yes I'm aware of how powerful combinations of realms are but its hard to give rares a chance that way.

Things like transmute are great, but either you get adamantium (again, working with city troops - and I'm trying to make nature about summons), or you get better resources, which helps for individual summons, or it helps in the end game. The resources are all useful in the the phase of the game I'm concerned with (and since I normally don't play nature I've learned to make the best of what I get) so its nice, but not a game changer.

Black prayer is awesome, true. I always forget its uncommon. Drain power doesn't make any noticeable difference, doesn't help you clear lairs, doesn't help against people you can already beat with commons. Intellectually its good, especially for the long term, but it and transmute are perfect examples of what I'm talking about. They are great spells, well designed, and do exactly what they should - but they FEEL worse than commons.
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I think the problem here is that you play too much Life magic? That has useful commons and poor uncommon options... same for Sorcery.

Chaos uncommons and rares are amazing game changes : Lightning Bolt, Chaos Channels, Fire Storm, Flame Strike, Doom Bolt, Metal Fires, Magic Vortex, Doom Mastery, Chaos Spawn, Efreet, etc.
Life uncommons are mostly medicore but Prayer is probably the best uncommon spell in the game. Rares are amazing -Incarnation, Invulnerability, Lionheart, Holy Word, Inspiration, Prosperity.
Nature is powerful all around, Giant Spiders, Cockatrices, Great Lizards, Gorgons, Stone Giants are all powerful creatures with good uses, Earth Elemental is amazing, Petrify is a solid combat spell and the only of its kind such the realm has, Gaias Blessing is outright +50% population to your empire, Iron Skin and Elemental Armor are far better than any common buffs in the game.
Death...Shadow Demons win the game outright in many cases. Werewolves are really good in the early game. Blood Lust is a game changer now, high armor units are a joke if you have it. Black Prayer is powerful and you'll use it almost every combat. Wave of Despair worked very well for me, and it another game changer. Wraiths are also able to win games on their own but not in every situation. Cloud of Shadow can ensure survival even when under attack in otherwise hopeless cases. Dark Rituals...boosts power base massively. And finally Zombie Mastery, I never lost a game if I was able to cast that. It's way better than it looks like.
Finally Sorcery, Aura of Majesty is an obvious game changer and often decides between an easy victory and unwinnable 4 sided war. AEther Binding doesn't do much when you cast it first but as a long term investment it's extremely powerful and wins the game. Phantom Beast is the key to survive using Sorcery as it lacks strong units otherwise until rare.  Invisibility and Magic Immunity open up easy ways to clear lairs and level up heroes. Mind Storm allows killing even very rare monsters with save or die spells. Wind Walking, I don't think I need to explain that is another game changing spell.

So yea I think you're probably thinking this way because you play a far too military based wizard/race.

Sage Master might also play a role, letting you get very rares too quickly, so you "miss the timing" on using your rares, at least the overland spells.

Also you might be underrating transmute. +2 ATK and DEF on all your troops for essentially free is a game changing effect. (unless you fight a chaos wizard and lose the adamantium soon after)
Besides, a Nature wizard cannot buff their normal units using spells. They don't have such spells until very rare. So Transmute is like Holy Weapon+Holy Armor on all your troops for only 60 mana once. In a realm that doesn't have those two.
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I had a big long post responding to all your points, but I feel it was repetitive. In every case it boiled down to 'but you already have halberdiers with common spells due to surviving the early game, and no matter how much easier the uncommon and rare spells make things, in the majority of cases none of them actually allow you to do something (in terms of clearing nodes/killing wizards) that your halberdiers (or whatver city troop of choice you use) plus common spells couldn't already do.

An example is prayer or black prayer. These ARE amazing. But halberdiers with common spells are so cheap to produce that the occasional fight they can't win without prayer/black prayer, you can easily just produce another full stack and win anyway. And if the halberdiers with common spells can't win (regardless of prayer/black prayer) almost no uncommon/rare summons will let you win either, at least not in a reasonable amount of time. (Sure 9 Gorgon's can beat more things, and shadow demons can access the other plane - but you can get literally dozens of halberdiers in the same time and clear out 5-10 other things instead. Similarly, sure lightning bolt is great - but in most combats 3 firebolts is better, and due to skill limits, you can often get 5 firebolts instead of your last lightning bolt. Fireball/flame strike? Most cases your city troops can kill whatever they would kill, and if not, then use firebolt.

Again I think this is because of the 'mass numbers' that the game encourages us to use. If we didn't have 10+ cities, We couldn't produce mass numbers of city troops, and all the uncommons/rares would be better because they are slightly better individually. But without 10 cities we don't have enough skill/power to produce those sane uncommons/rates.


So maybe the real problem is I don't find myself in long term games with only a handful of cities? (Which might also explain why I've always thought 1420 is an odd date for an early game?)

And that's probably due to my impossible experience where you will get utterly crushed if you don't have enough depth to your empire?

I could see that. Impossible experience warps my view yet again!


*satisfied sigh* (like Dash from the end of incredibles) I love this game.
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On a different note, currently playing a Chaos Lizardman (but with Myrran retort) Hard game against 2 AI.

Both AI were on Myrror with me. Lizardmen reproduce SUPER fast compared to Dwarves and Trolls. I colonized 25ish cities before the first AI declared war on me, but I was stronger than him, and banished him around the time I colonized my 35th city. The combination of cities and banishing the only other AI led Rjak to declare war on me as well; he had a stronger army than me (I was SUPER thin on military), so he took 5 or so cities in the first few turns. Nice thing about lizardmen.. I don't care! He had to stop to garrison things and couldn't keep any momentum going. My armies that had banished Raven got back, and started taking cities away from Rjak, and Rjak cracked the first tower. (We're in 1413, and that is the only cracked tower.) He didn't immediately lunge through it, so I garrisoned it, and am sending a massive stream of settlers through. I think I've just settled my 9th city on Arcanus.

Other interesting thing: Not a single node has been defeated. In fact, I would guess less than 30 lairs have been defeated (large landmass). I'm getting all my power from vast quantities of shrines and libraries. But I have nothing (as pure chaos) that can hope to defeat numerous very rare creatures, even in a node. No idea why Rjak hasn't taken any - but he's pure Death, so his realm isn't really designed for strategic combat. But he's dwarf, so he should have plenty of hammerhands that can waltz in and crush nodes. Not sure whats happening there. (For having 11 death books - he got 1 from a lair - I don't think I've seen him with any death summons except for night stalkers and skeletons. Which is sad since he started with Conjuror. Also no global spells at all. I really have no idea what he's doing with his spells. He cast evil presence once? And some blood lusts. I suppose he's using lots of in combat spells, but he hasn't really been in that many active battles with me.)
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If you're playing Chaos Lizardmen, chaos nodes should be very easy for you. Cast EW+FB+CC on 9stacks of javelineers and no Chaos node will be able to stand up to them. Most nodes won't even need the full set of enchantments on all 9, as that's 9 range attack on 6 figures plus -10% to-def, plus they're super strong in melee. (they're basically you're beloved Halberdiers) Probably even just doom mastery + 9stacks of javilineers would be enough for nodes with just 1-2 Great Drakes or 3-4 doom bats, but you'll probably lose most of the stack in those cases.
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Ah sorry; this is one of the games where I'm trying to ficus on the realm not city troops. I'm using troops as garrisons but trying to avoid attacking things with them - for that I'm trying to use summons plus rarely heroes if at all possible. Also, somehow I managed to miss chaos channels with 7 books. So I could do doom mastery, but then I can't get EW and FB.
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On that note, I AM happy to report the AI is intelligent enough that I can't just flame strike my way to victory. If I don't have sizeable garrisons, I lose cities.
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