Commodore moved after me on t48, and before me on t49 (running). Can he still attack next turn (in the first half)? I could not see the chariot on t48, and if I had, I would have played differently (would have pulled the scout towards the city to gain the one turn I need). Edit: it is possible that he came W-S from that forest I can't look into, but I doubt that that's what happened. He could ave achieved a strike from the fog easily by moving from the riverside grassland to the plains 1N from where he is now, so I assume he moved onto one of the hills and then south.
(May 6th, 2020, 06:52)AdrienIer Wrote: Didn't Ruff found Buddhism ?
No, his culture graph doesn't show more than a monument,and everyone else I have graphs on has no more than the palace. That leaves SD, FT, Rasko and Elkad. I had assumed SD because Oracle and FT has terraces for culture, but he also had a score increase iirc. The other two I don't remember, possibly also candidates (Rasko s CRE though, Elkad... no idea what's up with Joao of 2 cities).
But... Isn't it Ruff in brown in the score with the buddhist icon by his civ's name ?
About the double move, yes it looks like it's against the rules if he does anything aggressive.
(May 6th, 2020, 06:52)AdrienIer Wrote: Didn't Ruff found Buddhism ?
No, his culture graph doesn't show more than a monument,and everyone else I have graphs on has no more than the palace. That leaves SD, FT, Rasko and Elkad. I had assumed SD because Oracle and FT has terraces for culture, but he also had a score increase iirc. The other two I don't remember, possibly also candidates (Rasko s CRE though, Elkad... no idea what's up with Joao of 2 cities).
But... Isn't it Ruff in brown in the score with the buddhist icon by his civ's name ?
About the double move, yes it looks like it's against the rules if he does anything aggressive.
I... hadn't noticed that, but don't think so. Our culture graph is steeper, and his has severaly bends indicating monuments. I guess what actually happened is that he captured the holy city from superdeath! Note that he converted just the turn he took a city from him (he's SPI). That doesn't explain why he chose to plant a totem pole in his capital, but a close look at the culture graph confirms it (don't have a shot, will edit in later).
Thanks for your opinion on the double move, I'd still like to hear an opinion from someone not in the team (as said, preferably Ref or Charriu)
couldn't hold up playing the turn any longer, so I moved as if he can't attack in the first half next turn.
I'll also PM Comm himself to either not attack or leave it to the referees.
We usually don't have assigned refs for the games here. It's the duty of all lurkers to act as referees if needed. But your way of doing it was fine. Additionally you could have posted in the global tech thread that there is a problem with double moves that the lurkers should investigate. That way the other players also know that there is a good reason to pause the game. But try to keep the details like the actual other player in your own thread
(May 6th, 2020, 23:32)Charriu Wrote: I agree with Adrienler about the double-move.
We usually don't have assigned refs for the games here. It's the duty of all lurkers to act as referees if needed. But your way of doing it was fine. Additionally you could have posted in the global tech thread that there is a problem with double moves that the lurkers should investigate. That way the other players also know that there is a good reason to pause the game. But try to keep the details like the actual other player in your own thread
Thanks Charriu for you opinion as well. I was reluctant to post in the tech thread, as talking of a double move would already tell Cairo that I have a tense situation with someone going on, and that could influence his decision (eg Ruff and superdeath talking double moves before gave me somewhat relevant information I wouldn't have otherwise).
I'm aware that we don't have an actual referee, I just wanted to make sure to have a lurker who is somewhat involved in the game have a look at it, so again, thanks.
Commodore responded to my PM and agreed to let me have the first half. I was a bit reluctant to give up the second half, but tbh if he had observed the turnsplit he'd have it, and as I said he could easily have razed my city legitimately by actually moving from the fog, so that's fine.
I moved the scout into the city to prevent a raze. Comm can decide to trade his chariot for my warrior:
if he moves in, sees the chariot, then moves back and offers peace I'll accept that, because I think 10t security outweighs the snipe. If he pillages or attacks I'll take the chariot and offer peace. Maybe he just moves away. I'm really not sure what this is meant to achieve: He has scouted this area before, he knows perfectly well where my city is, and if he really wanted to attack he could have moved better. Maybe he wants me to build military to defend against Cairo?
His city in the north (picture in he last report) had a barracks chopped into it, which is a bit concerning: the city has three resources first ring, so it doesn't really need the border pop urgently, and it doesn't have a granary yet. So that looks aggressive. Might be though that there are more resources in the fog where I can't see them.
In general, I am concerned that Commodore got annoyed by the Pashupati plant for the two gold hills and will try to take/raze it (note that when I founded, I had mistaken Rasko's culture for his, so I felt more secure about the plant. It seems to be third ring for both of us). My hope is that 1) he realizes that he has better options right now against Rasko, who is at war with Cornflakes and Elkad already and has lost a city, sitting at two, or 2) he just wants to tech to Samurai really fast, not get embroiled in early wars, and we reach Machinery in time as well on our way to Engineering, so we can counter him with crossbows.
Now for the problems with our other neighbour: last turn, I calmed down a bit with my paranoia of getting boated, because I concluded the game would tell me when this was becoming a possibility. Well, this turn it did:
That's bad for two reasons: firstly, they may now attempt to boat the capital (remember, Ruff had the bonus agains archers for melee event), though I don't consider this very likely yet, especially for Ruff. But more importantly, their motivation for getting it has to be securing that island, and atm we can't do anything about it, as we're 6 turns away from Sailing still. Well, losing that would be even worse somehow than Cairo's third city I've been raging about. At this point I just hope the Oracle plan works out and we can take the island over with triremes.
Also notice that one black tile 2S1W from his capital? He can place a galley there without us seeing it, then the next turn unload next to our cap. I whipped the archer at the capital (was planned for next turn, we still work all the improved tiles) and will start another unit there. Not sure whether an archer or an axe, but I lean axe.
Spoiler for map whinery
Notice that he can unload onto a forest that is really awkward to reach with my workers. Meanwhile, if I tried the same I'd have to unload on a bare grass tile (ok I don't know if that was chopped, but it's accessible for him) AND have to attack crossing the river
at least the diplo screen is more interesting now:
now this motivates more complaints:
That corn is at his capital in the fog (I know all the tiles of his 2nd and 3rd cities), where he also has a riverside plains wheat. It's connected, so probably riverside as well. I think this is very much superior to 2 fish. Now we have a third food resource... after Sailing . He also has a 3rd one, a clams that he apparently didn't feel the need to hook until this turn, because he's bathing in food anyways (I was seeing it).
Then he has excellent second and third city spots with food, forests, and green valleys, while we have one plains wheat by an oasis without forests, where we can also get a clam on another sea (so no helping with the workboat), and else NO food tile above 3yield, and for that we have to cross the jungle (also the only forests).
Ok, we have the flood plains valley (slooooow), or could spend 50h and a second column tech on a very early galley, but afaik that city also nets just a single clam. You could argue that Cairo's third city should have been ours, but without an immediate border pop you have to found on his site of the river, which would be pretty impossible to defend.
I was hoping we somehow had a favourably map position, and we kind of have, with only Cairo really close (but.... REALLY), but it seems Cairo also doesn't have any pressure from the east, if he now feels like he has time to go for the city on the island (now if his neighbour is Elkad who still doesn't build cities then that might not be the map's fault).
Yes, I feel Cairo's start is more than a bit superior to ours.
Now I don't mean to accuse Ref of anything. He warned us that the map wasn't balanced in a traditional sense, and I agreed to that. I'm sure he had a plan when he designed this start and I may be too dumb to follow it (well I think we're supposed to get strong commerce-wise while having it more difficult for food and hammers - Can't say I like that). It's also clear that he can't see every development in advance.
I forgot to take a shot of Ruff's screen. He made peace with superdeath last turn; I hope that SD decides against going back to his Oracle run with just two cities, and also that Ruff abstains from sending his excess power our way (Would be a really strange move, but so far he's been prone to do things I don't understand. Also, we may have to fight him on the island.)
Here are the general international relations, the Rasko wars are still ongoing.
Stonehenge still not built btw (and Cairo hasn't connected stone either)
Demos (looking somewhat positive, though I took it before whipping off a bare FP) and graphs, this time with culture to illustrate my musings reg. Buddhism and Ruff:
Is there only a warrior in Pashupati? Commodore might just raze it - then again, he doesn't have site into the city so I doubt he attacks. He'll assume we have defense before risking the chariot this early. Unless he's feeling particularly boxed in. Then he may feel he has no choice. But that seems unlikely.
EDIT: Are you going to snap up the island with our next settler? That's the only way I see Sailing ahead of AH making sense for us.
(May 7th, 2020, 19:37)pindicator Wrote: Is there only a warrior in Pashupati? Commodore might just raze it - then again, he doesn't have site into the city so I doubt he attacks. He'll assume we have defense before risking the chariot this early. Unless he's feeling particularly boxed in. Then he may feel he has no choice. But that seems unlikely.
EDIT: Are you going to snap up the island with our next settler? That's the only way I see Sailing ahead of AH making sense for us.
There's a scout under the warrior, so the spear arrives in time. getting the scout there was what all the double move talk was about. I can see him just poking a newbie. If he manages to raze that city, we're back behind the jungle, so he may conclude he doesn't have to fear retribution. he also saw me founding with just the warrior covering. but it's all good (for now).
Next settler found green (floods plains/ marble/ gold) before Sailing finishes. The island is supposed to be grabbed by the one after. I have to admit I don't have an eta yet for that one (will look at it, but getting a worker onto the galley already gives us the cow. But with Ruff and Cairo both having a window for the island now I'll consider slotting AH in first. Sailing wool also let us build a trireme though if we land the Oracle
I think it's still a bit premature to complain about the map, or rather that it's too early to know for sure what the map is like so any complaint is likely to be based on partial information. It's very likely that we have more land than most people, and I doubt that Persia is better off if it has good land but only ~6 cities of it when we have ok land with ~8 cities.
