Races, Units, Buildings

[Seravy]

War trolls move fast enough to run in a circle while regenerating.

Oh true, I forgot about that. Only if they don't have city walls though, otherwise they are trapped inside.

Good point about pathfinding, does pathfinding work in combat now?

Yes, it allows ignoring terrain now, although not mud, you need noncorporeal or swimming+pathfinding for that.

[Seravy]

Started a game with dwarves, using cannons with 1 lower armor and requiring University.
The cannons are amazing, and not just for defense. I have taken a neutral dark elf city (had 8 cavalry in it) using a stack of 5 cannons, 2 lairs with 6 sprites and 3 war bears in both using 9 cannons, and now a lair with many chaos spawns, all of these without losing a single cannon. I've also used them against an enemy wizard and got two small cities from them, again without losing a single cannon. They have so much health and armor they don't even get killed when hit by ranged attacks and fire bolts.

They have adamant which makes them better but it's quite likely to have that when playing on myrror. Unless something really bad is going on in Arcanus, I'll probably have no problems winning, and it's on impossible.

[namad]

Started a game with dwarves, using cannons with 1 lower armor and requiring University.
The cannons are amazing, and not just for defense. I have taken a neutral dark elf city (had 8 cavalry in it) using a stack of 5 cannons, 2 lairs with 6 sprites and 3 war bears in both using 9 cannons, and now a lair with many chaos spawns, all of these without losing a single cannon. I've also used them against an enemy wizard and got two small cities from them, again without losing a single cannon. They have so much health and armor they don't even get killed when hit by ranged attacks and fire bolts.

They have adamant which makes them better but it's quite likely to have that when playing on myrror. Unless something really bad is going on in Arcanus, I'll probably have no problems winning, and it's on impossible.

I think perhaps steam cannon's should require a Mechanician's guild and the miner's guild should be for catapults, that said, defeating 6 sprites and 3 warbears with 900 production worth of unique units with adamantium weapons.... is.... uh... something almost any race can do, isn't it? (assuming they can hit the sprites at all.)

Chaos spawn are uniquely weak to cannon's specifically because of their design (gorgons or stone giants might not be). 8 Calvary could be defeated quite easily by a lot of race's 500 production and adamantium weapons, I guess specifically here the problem is you're having too little attrition?

I'm not sure how to increase their attrition rate other than making them have -2 defense. Isn't mapmove speed of 1 though making it difficult to respond quickly on many fronts? (Assuming anyone broke the wizard's towers before you were able to guard them with 9 cannons each?) Once you get 9 cannons on every tower it is basically a won game, but depending on how aggressive the other wizard's are that could be quite tough?

I've got a game where I managed to get lifemage warlord draconian units on every tower and it was basically an automatic win (once I stopped a horde of barbarians that snuck through one tower before I got to it). The ai in that game is attacking a single doom drake with 5 minotaurs and letting me hit end turn 25 times (as well as other similar examples). Even if you give steam cannons -5 defense with life magic they'd probably still not suffer a ton of attrition? Maybe they need never heals? and maybe catapults too? (you could afford to buff them in exchange? but with never heals eventually you'd lose 1or2 in the game you're playing above?)

Is this a problem of attrition? (never heals would 100% solve that.) or is this a problem with having ANY strong defensive unit on myrran because once you can guard the towers you have 1opponent instead of 3, on the same amount of landmass, and with more powerful ruins/nodes/resources. Perhaps meaning that myrran races should all be redesigned to have far lower defensive power (perhaps giving them additional offensive power in exchange?)

Another issue I've noticed is that non-draconian myrran opponents below impossible (I never play impossible myself) often get off to very neutered starts if they start on an island, meaning in the above scenario sometimes you have 0 opponents for the majority of the game. Since you can beat myrran opponents a bit too easily, randomly, depending on their start, then lock down all the towers. On arcanus if one opponent is neutered with a bad start it just means the other two have more room to grow dangerous, but on myrran it's a MASSIVE advantage. Maybe you should start every ai opponent in the game with a trireme on every difficulty? Or maybe make it so that if the player is a myrran there are automatically 2 myrran opponents? That way at least one of them is likely to be dangerous. It would also spice up myrran playthrus by players a bit, instead of making them a bit like solitaire for the first early portion of the game like they can be now.

[Nelphine]

I've actually been thinking that.

The problem isn't so much steam cannons, or draconians, or trolls, or whatever your strategy uses. The problem is only one opponent instead of 3. I'd be tempted to a) move myrran back to 3 picks, or b) greatly increase the number of myrror ai's.

Also, life wizards on arcanus aren't bound by towers, but that's a small point.

Actually, making nodes/lairs on myrror more dangerous OUTSIDE the node/lair could work too. Effectively, make neutrals/nodes/lairs on Myrror an extra opponent.

I kind of like that idea better. It might need to much modification on rampaging monsters though.

[Seravy]

defeating 6 sprites and 3 warbears with 900 production worth of unique units with adamantium weapons.... is.... uh... something almost any race can do, isn't it?

Defeating, sure. Taking zero damage without buffs and only casting healing twice? Not really. I mean, even without healing I would have not lost a single unit...and I was unit ranged troops against ranged. If I went in with 9 magicians, I would have lost at least 3 of those.

I guess specifically here the problem is you're having too little attrition?

Pretty much yes. 6 Cavalry or Sprites firing ranged attacks on my cannons didn't even kill a single one (and they weren't buffed). Beating Chaos Spawns, yes that's fine but 6 of them without even one reaching the cannons? I admit I webbed two but still. I mean the weakness of the cannot is it cannot move away...but stuff either can't reach it, on in case of bears it can't do enough damage to kill it. 2-3 units of bears chewing on my cannons still wasn't enough to lose one after it got hit by the 6 sprites! (Yes I healed it, but that's only 5 hit points...)

Isn't mapmove speed of 1 though making it difficult to respond quickly on many fronts?

Not really. I produce 1 every 2nd turn in 1-3 cities so I just have enough to have them everywhere. Yes it takes 10 turns for it to reach that lair I want but...who cares if I have another 4-5 cannons left in all my cities plus it was cheap enough to come into play 10 turns earlier than what other races could make? And then there is that tiny detail that many schools of magic can carry them on flying/noncorporeal ships at a speed of 4.

(Assuming anyone broke the wizard's towers before you were able to guard them with 9 cannons each?)

No tower is broken yet, I haven't seen an Arcanus wizard. I'm fighting the Myrran wizard right now, taken away 3 of their cities so far. I only lost one battle, or more appropriate to say city when I forgot to leave units there...I set it to make more cannons when I sent those I had for a lair, but forgot to hit "Buy" the next 3 turns.

Is this a problem of attrition?

The problem is the cannons are strong against a lot of things, but weak against none. Ranged units don't deal enough damage to kill any, melee units are either too slow to reach, or fast but not tough enough to survive the first 2-3 shots. Spells..possessions fail because they resist it. Fire Bolts...don't do enough damage, at best I need to cast healing once. Higher tier direct damage spells would probably work but those are not frequent at the time the cannons are available. I'm fighting a Death/Chaos/Sorcery wizard and the most I lost was 2 cannons...and that was a battle against 5 magicians and 2 shadow demons! Haven't seen better spells than possession or fire bolt or confusion yet.

No attrition is one thing (my Nomad horsebowmen could annihilate stacks of 9 nagas without a single point of damage taken), but no attrition against ANYTHING, aside from a very few uncommon and most rare+ spells is a bit too good. The unit is way too durable for its timing and cost I think. Might be the adamant though...but on Myrror who makes units without adamant anyway?
I mean, when you play dwarf, 90% you'll play rich land.

Maybe you should start every ai opponent in the game with a trireme on every difficulty?

That would be hard to do. I made sure the AI has a very high chance to get water access, Water Walking and Floating Island and Wraith Form are all top 2 choices for common spells.

Or maybe make it so that if the player is a myrran there are automatically 2 myrran opponents?

Interesting idea, I'll keep it in mind. I need to play a lot of games to be able to tell how often the AI gets stuck on Myrror.

Effectively, make neutrals/nodes/lairs on Myrror an extra opponent.

You can always turn the stronger monsters and raiders options on if you feel you need this.

[namad]

I strongly disagree that if you pick dwarven you're playing on rich. Personally I want you to balance the game around the normal setting as best you can, totally ignoring rich/poor/powerful/weak.

Sure maybe helves/myrran are OP on weak nodes, sure dwarfs can be OP on rich, on tiny draconian probably have a big boost. However, as long as normal is balanced, when the human chooses those odd settings they know what they're doing and want an odd game.

What about my idea to make catapults and steam cannons unable to heal (like undead, reason being they're made of wood/iron)? You might have to buff catapults as a result but could leave steam cannons unchanged? Alternatively just keep removing defense, or increasing cost, or requiring higher tech like university AND mechnicanians guild both? But imo don't play a test game on rich. (my reasoning is that if the problem is that they never take attrition letting them never heal means that eventually they'll just be out of hp)... another note were you using warlord? Life warlord is I think just plain old super powerful for all races. Especially draconians and barbarians because of the double damage benefit.

tl;dr I am personally 100% okay with dwarfs being OP on rich, as long as they're balanced on normal.

[Seravy]

I strongly disagree that if you pick dwarven you're playing on rich. Personally I want you to balance the game around the normal setting as best you can, totally ignoring rich/poor/powerful/weak.

I usually do that, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of players would pick Rich for an impossible game which I'm doing. I would not pick rich if I was playing hard or probably even extreme.
Also, in my experience playing on Myrror, even with normal minerals, means adamant 90% of the time. Probably not on your starting city, but you will be able to find at least one or two you can use. There is only one other wizard so you can scout and take advantage of a larger area than on Arcanus.

What about my idea to make catapults and steam cannons unable to heal

It...surprisingly wouldn't have made much difference for cannons. I mean, my cannons were not damaged so they didn't have any damage to heal. Unless you also mean disabling the healing spell which would be...not easy to do I think. And even then Regeneration and Healing Charge goes through these kinds of restrictions. And I only used the spell like a few times, so I would have lost like, 4 cannons out of the 25 I have? I think going lower on armor might help more, I'm playing with 6 instead of 7 but maybe 5 is better? I mean 5 is still 7 at veteran and 9 at veteran with adamant...pretty high for a ranged unit that also comes with 12 health.
Aside from that, players usually hate units that don't heal naturally which is why Death Realm no longer has that limitation.

[mhek]

Could you maybe make cannons and catapults needing to reload one round after each shot? Basically they could only shoot every other round.

[Seravy]

Could you maybe make cannons and catapults needing to reload one round after each shot? Basically they could only shoot every other round.

That's pretty much in the realm of impossible.

[Nelphine]

Agreed on the not balancing dwarves around rich comment. (Although omg my first impossible rich game, no restarting, my capital gets 1 wild game, 1 adamantium, 1 gold mine, 1 orahilicron, and 1 coal. And has a max pop of 24. Unfreaking believable.)

The only problem with the rampaging monster option is that its either on, or off. Ideally, what I'd be interested in is a scaling effect - early games you get more raiders/monsters, but they're weak. Late game you get stronger and stronger ones. And most importantly, I want it to be myrror only, so that myrror wizards have to deal with more hazards to make up for the lack of AI wizards. Rampaging monsters/raiders would be on top of this change.

To go back to my other comment: Myrran retort gets you 3 things - better race, better ores, and more space from enemy wizards. I think 3 picks is fair, even without the bonus power.

Then again, I haven't actually tested a lot with rampaging monsters. *goes off to see what it actually does*