DEATH Realm

[Nelphine]

I like the name black channels. Those buffs are huge. For half the price, life gets +1 to hit. Chaos gets +3 melee or a random one of +3 breath, +3 armour or flight. Undead is a benefit, not a drawback on most units you use this on (how long were those swordsmen going to last before you doubled their attack and defense?) Compare to lycanthropy - you'll never use werewolves again.

For those stats I would pay 250.

Why was black channels removed in the first place? (Link maybe so I can get some background)

Definitely no to the shadow attack.


Edit: I also think this should be rather distinct from lycanthropy. Maybe make it a combat only spell? Then the huge stats are warrented since you lose them after combat.

[Seravy]

Why was black channels removed in the first place? (Link maybe so I can get some background)

Because it sucked so hard it's hard to describe.
For an irrelevant amount of stat buffs (well okay, they were not bad but it would have been a fair amount for that price even without turning into undead), you ended up with a unit that :

1.Cannot be buffed further because it is no longer a normal unit
2.Vulnerable to a whole ton of nasty instant death spells that hit only fantastic units including Dispel Evil at -9 : any other wizard playing Life meant you just killed your own unit by "buffing" it.
3.Cannot gain experience so it loses the same amount of stats it gained on the long run or more (elite level used to be exactly equal to the stats this gave on its own)
4.Cannot be healed so the mana investment is guaranteed to go into something that won't last and every time it fights, it gets weaker (as damage keeps piling up)
5.All of these remain on the unit even if the buff is lost to dispelling.
6.Trolls other Death wizards because all your units will be immune to all their spells (not that you'd use units that aren't otherwise, but this makes it far easier)

Since then a lot of modding has been done fortunately.
1. This is still true but now there are also fantastic unit only buffs, so this is now a tradeoff, not a drawback.
2. This is still true, although it is no longer -9, only -3 from Life, and -4 from Sorcery.
3. Still true, but Elite level is worth much less than the intended amount of buff(s) or even the original amount
4. Still true and the greatest problem with the spell. If I summon a creature, or use another buff, I can keep using that many times before something actually kills it, or even until the end of the game.
5. Still true.
6. Also still true

So...aside from auto-losing the unit against any life wizard, the situation is roughly the same. Which is a big improvement I guess, but 125 mana crystals is quite pricey to invest into a unit that is not going to last longer than 2 battles. (okay, maybe if it is ranged, but those only get +2, hardly worth the 125 mana...)

Compare to lycanthropy - you'll never use werewolves again.

I bet you will put these on your werewolves first. Which brings us to
7. You couldn't use it on a fantastic unit, which would have been the best option.

If the spell comes back, it'll work on anything. Since undead Death creatures are an actual thing now (you can make them with Animate Dead), I see no reason to exclude fantastic units. They don't have all that many figures anyway.

On the other hand, I do see how granting Cold, Illusion and Death immunity all at once is pretty powerful, and I'm not too happy those come with the undead trait by default, but there is a catch. If you play a Death wizard, those abilities are readily available to you on all creatures you can summon or turn undead already. It's not like having undead halberdiers of your own race is that different from having those form the opponent's race raised after combat. This is more of an advantage for a wizard that only has 1-2 death books and does not have much Death creatures.
(btw on the positive side, this gives the AI an additional spell to fight invisibility in combat)

About the stats themselves.
+4 melee because this spell is, afterall, mainly intended to buff your weak, disposable units. If it isn't granting enough attack power, they'll remain useless. 3 might be enough for that I suppose, 4 is probably an overkill. A zombie with 7 melee is good enough.
+2 ranged because, well, if it's not granting any, you'll never want it on a ranged unit. I guess this isn't important, and can be dropped, no one says we have to be able to use it on ranged units.
+4 armor because, first, there is no health bonus unlike the original, and second, something must offset that any damage to the unit is permanent. If it isn't at least durable enough to last more than one battle, it's a waste of mana crystals. Maybe 3 is more reasonable here as well? Not sure if enough to offset the lack of 1 health. I'd say 1 health is worth 3 armor, and black channels was 1 heart and 1 shield which would be 4 total.
+2 resistance to offset the extra 2 save penalty to undead on Exorcise and Holy Word. I don't really like the idea of the unit becoming that much easier to kill for Life wizards. (and Sorcery too thanks to Banish and Great Unsummon) We can drop this as well but then I prefer to lower the casting cost to 20/100.

so how about
+3 melee
+4 armor
undead
cost 15/75?
This makes a zombie a 7 melee, 6 armor, 3 health unit which is...about as good as an elite halberdier. Ugh that's kinda steep even for 75 mana crystals...but it has create undead which makes the investment well worth it in the end. I think these numbers are fine. Maybe even at a cost of 16/80 or 18/90 or at this cost with 3 armor?

[Nelphine]

I think its in the right range. I could even support the original buffs, but I think you're vastly overestimating how much of a drawback undead is. I'd probably balance the cost somewhere around how effective it is on zombies and wraiths. Then on normal troops, yes its going yo be overcosted. But better to be overcosted than to be undercoated on the things it's really good on. If it turns out after 100 games it should be changed, change it then.

Also, why 4 armour instead of 1 health 1 armour? I don't mind either way, but more health seems thematic.

[Seravy]

I think its in the right range. I could even support the original buffs, but I think you're vastly overestimating how much of a drawback undead is. I'd probably balance the cost somewhere around how effective it is on zombies and wraiths. Then on normal troops, yes its going yo be overcosted. But better to be overcosted than to be undercoated on the things it's really good on. If it turns out after 100 games it should be changed, change it then.

Also, why 4 armour instead of 1 health 1 armour? I don't mind either way, but more health seems thematic.

Health is harder to add and dispelling it hurts the unit. (they lose the extra health granted, even if they already had more than that much damage)

Wraiths and Death Knights buffed with this, huh. That...sounds really powerful. Overpowered, even. I mean, +4 armor on something that heals itself for a ton of health every time it attacks...isn't that way too powerful? At least now you need Nature for that. Having it guaranteed in the same realm is too good?
This makes me want to add health instead, but health...is bad on other units. For a zombie or werewolf, armor adds far more durability than health.

Okay, I don't know. The goal is to have a buff that is desirable on cheap, weak units, or regenerating units, but not a buff that is "must have" on wraiths and Death Knights. Land Linking is nice on the lower end fantastic units, but you often don't bother putting it on high end ones because the stats are kinda not worth it compared to what the unit already has. But extra armor on a wraith or death knight? Will always want that! On the other hand, without extra armor the low end unit just stays worthless.

[Nelphine]

Yeah that's why I thought the original stats were too high. I'll never waste buffs on things that aren't meant to win a battle. And that means looking at it on units that win the game not on units that happen to tide you over until you research better.

[Seravy]

Yeah that's why I thought the original stats were too high. I'll never waste buffs on things that aren't meant to win a battle. And that means looking at it on units that win the game not on units that happen to tide you over until you research better.

Yep, well this reminded me why I didn't want ANY buffs in Death that increases the durability of units.
Running out of ideas...

okay, let's see

Black Channels = out
Keeping berserk = out
Grant shadow = out
Unit curse, global = out, covered by existing spells
Nuke = out, have enough
Unit curse, single target = out, covered by existing spells
Creature, city enchant, global enchant, combat enchant = out, no slot
Spell to affect a wizard directly = out
Spell that hurts a wizard's empire in a new way (no good ideas, aside from making units desert, but that is overpowered and stupid, also these things are kinda problematic because they hurt a wizard without a diplomatic penalty for it) = out unless someone has a very good idea
Enchanted unit deals doom/illusion damage in melee = out, overpowered. A halberdier would deal like, 18 damage per hit.
High attack buff but unit moves automatically and cannot heal - out, high armor unit with this is unstoppable and neither side effect matters to it
Berserk but unit takes damage per turn/when attacking/end of combat - out, AI can't handle

that leaves :
1. Black Wind back as uncommon
Unit buff that makes unit undead but grants something entirely different that wraith and death knight does not benefit from....attack power? But then we are back to square one, berserk. So it can't be attack either, at least not a very large amount. If it's a buff that is not granting stats to the unit then what? What if it's attack but conditional?
2. Blood Lust - Enchanted unit has double melee attack power against normal units and is undead.
3. Pain Aura - Enchanted unit is undead, and all enemy units in combat lose 1 armor. Cumulative with itself.
4. Decaying Touch - Enchanted unit is undead, gains +2 melee and deals irrecoverable damage.
5. Hunting Instinct - Enchanted unit is undead and gains +2 To Hit.
I don't have any more ideas.

well...
1 : If we make it hit units instead of figures and teach the AI to target lower resistance, this is good.
2 : Fits theme, works against resistant units, hurts heroes, and hard to abuse as it does nothing against summons which are intended to be the top units in the game. But it still feels too powerful?
3 : no different from granting +9 attack if used in full stack, out
4 : Think we agreed in the Chaos thread, irrecoverable damage unit buff is too strong for an uncommon. Out.
5 : Boosts damage output by 50% on a typical target which is good but not as broken as berserk and effect gets weaker on more powerful units.

I'm not a fan of 5.
So...we should pick 1, or 2, or both and remove one more spell which I don't think we can do.
But...if we go with 1, the game loses the berserk+regeneration combo and I will really miss having something that is equivalent to that. If we go with 2...we give up on fixing an existing spell up into something useful. I think this could be a a really scary weapon at uncommon especially in the hands of AI if it learns to consider resistance...
This one is hard...

[Seravy]

I think I'm going to go with

2. Blood Lust - Enchanted unit has double melee attack power against normal units and is undead.

Fits well with the theme of the realm (strong against normal units).
Balanced (normal units are not a significant value)
Combo with regeneration (undead don't heal)
Useful on non-regenerating units too (If cost is reasonably cheap, it's worth losing the unit and spell to kill a higher tier unit, and potentially turning it into our side)
Can be used to create stronger garrisons that don't need food or gold if needed
Counters high resistance+defense units (Golem, Turtle)
Counters heroes (they are normal units...usually)
Counters buff stacking to some extent which Death also is bad at handling (Double melee on a good unit can dispose of a crazy buffer halberdier or paladin)
AI friendly (majority of the player's stacks will be normal so it's a threat. Undead immunities can help even if the other effects don't. Inability to heal doesn't matter for AI, the unit can and will be replaced easily. Should be limited to cheaper units for AI, no point putting it on a great drake or demon lord which can already slaughter normal units. But expensive units that regenerate or life steal should be allowed probably)
Player friendly (Can be countered by mixed stacks, or ranged/direct damage if needed)
The spell also counters itself (helps with balance and provides one more use for it)
Is similar to berserk so people who liked that spell might not get disappointed by the removal of it (in fact it is a more versatile version of berserk as there is no defense reduction)

On the other hand Black Wind is
-still situational even if improved and uncommon
-too chance based to risk the cost early in the game (most stacks will still have a good 40-50% survival rate, which can cause the spell to be wasted of they roll, say, 6 survivors out of 9)
-overpowered in the hands of the AI (losing 50% of the largest stack the player has repeatedly is hard to survive in the early game. Unlike Fire Storm, this does not get ineffective if single figure units are used, and not much has 10+ resist early)
-Makes Life and Sorcery stronger (bless and resist magic and their stacks are untouchable...)
So the only way it would really be improving the game was if it was doing damage instead of resist or die but...other realms already have that.

Question is...if we do Blood Lust, then
a., how much should it cost? 50? 75? It can't be too much since it is meant for cheap units. (It's kinda worthless on expensive ones, losing the ability to naturally heal to let a unit deal double to things it can easily slaughter anyway is rarely a good idea)
b., Keep it overland only, or enable combat as well? Might be a bit too strong if one could use it on-demand whenever the attacking army contains a lot of normal units.
c., Limit it to melee attacks, or also allow ranged? There is no defense reduction is involved, but at range, the "cannot heal" is not much of a drawback so probably has to be melee.

[Nelphine]

Putting black wind in could be OK, but an AI who gets that and starts using it as soon as first war is declared (turn.. 30?) would be virtually unstoppable unless you happen to be dwarf or nomad. I think that'd be a little excessive on the RNG side of AI wins.

So I'm against an uncommon black wind.

Black channels: option 2: if you want it useable by AI, it needs to work in strategic combat. As per our previous discussions, even more conditional attack and defense modifiers are probably a bad idea.

Black channels option 5: this could work.

6. Anyrhing wrong with using your original stats, and combat only (with undead lasting past combat)? Or is that too niche and doesn't actually fix anything?

7. Black channels with original game stats, useable on any creature, and call the loss of HP when dispelled an extra drawback for how powerful it can be? (Allow it to be cast on undead as well so you can partially counteract this.) Could also give it inherent double dispel protection (stacking with specialist and rubemaster) as well.

New bezerk idea: bezerk drops defense to zero as before (can be buffed). Bezerk adds 2 movement and 4 melee and thrown/breath strength. (Teach AI to only use it on things with at least movement 3.) Note: while I'm normally afsibst movement buffs because they're super awesome, this comes with a super drawback so it won't make heroes even worse.

Totally new spell idea: global that gives caster mana every time any city in the game loses population (2-5 per population, doubled if its the casters own population, doesn't include setller loss but that's probably too hard so just let it include settler loss)

[Nelphine]

I'm very against the bloodlust option due to strategic combat.

[Nelphine]

Of all the options I'm liking the new bezerk idea I just suggested the most, since it saves bezerk and should be useable by AI.