RB PBEM #1 - Gandhi [spoilers]

[Ruff_Hi]

Here is a summary ...



Legend

• red dots - settler waypoints
  
• light green circles - Eastern worker roading - required for settler
  
• dark green circles - Eastern worker subsequent roading
  
• light red circles - Western worker roading - required for settler
  
• dark red circles - Western worker subsequent roading
  
• pink area - location of Jaipur
  

Other considerations ...

• travel time for military from capital to Jaipur - 7 turns
  
• travel time for military from LQ to Jaipur - 5 turns
  
• not much point in sending chariots as they will be eaten by Greece's UU
  

I don't think there is much I can do to improve this. Given that this game is taking a break for a week, I'll spend the time working out how many axes I can get up to Jaipur to hold the site.

[Ruff_Hi]

Has anyone been talking to sooooo? He IM'd me via yahoo to talk about a border agreement. Damn this game being paused for a week - now he has more than enough time to react - 8 turns to get a settler in position. Hopefully, he is busy doing other stuff and thinks he has time. I will have to tread very carefully here.

sooooo: Hello Ruff
ruff_hi: hi sooooo - cannot talk now - jobs in backyard to do! and then BBQ lunch
ruff_hi: will be back later
sooooo: ok, sure
ruff_hi: what did you want to discuss?
sooooo: hello
sooooo: are you back from your bbq?
sooooo: I'm slightly embarrassed to say this .... but I wanted to discuss a settling agreement. I know, I know, templars etc etc
ruff_hi: seems fair on this map
sooooo: it seems to be 3rd settler time probably
ruff_hi: no - just inbetween jobs at the moment
ruff_hi: feel free to dump here and I will respond when I can
sooooo: the problem as i see it is that there's a big valley equidistant between our capitals
ruff_hi: or we can push it all off and have a chat this afternoon (3 or 4hrs?, maybe more)
sooooo: I don't mind either way
sooooo: if we don't have discussion, then whoever settles in that valley could block off the other player
sooooo: then the other player would probably be forced to DoW on the other
sooooo: and the whole of the early game is a military arms race and we'd both lose to mostly harmless
ruff_hi: sooooo - it will be lots more than 3-4 hrs
ruff_hi: movie this afternoon - let me send you an email about this
ruff_hi: can I post this conv to the web?
sooooo: ok, sure.
sooooo: yep.

[Ruff_Hi]

Well - its all happening. Sooooo and I tried to connect to have an IM chat but things got in the way. Dreylin and I did discuss the situation ...

Dreylin,

Have you been talking to sooooo - I think someone has. He IM'd me via yahoo to talk about a border agreement. Damn this game being paused for a week - now he has more than enough time to react - 8 turns to get a settler in position. Hopefully, he is busy doing other stuff and thinks he has time. I will have to tread very carefully here.

I am going to tell you that you and I are currently arguing over the area and see if I can swing that mountain range with the copper (did it have any food resources) as a DMZ.

Ruff

<I also included the chat sooooo and I had - see above>

Hey Ruff,

Veeery Eeeeenteresting.

I've swapped a couple of messages with sooooo over the last couple of
days, but it's been almost completely focused on Tech. There was a
vague suggestion at the beginning about both sharing borders with you
and cooperation being to our benefit, but I didn't respond to that
point and we've not discussed it since.

The interesting thing was that he has indicated that he has a deal
already in place for Monarchy, which puzzled me since he's only met
you and I so far. I asked him who that was with, but he then chose not
to reply to that question.

I've also been talking a bit with athlete; he is researching Monarchy,
but then indicated that Alphabet would be an acceptable trade option
from my POV, so I'm really rather confused. Mostly I'm trying to
reconcile their respective desires so I research a tech they both want
... in that respect, the week off is really working in my favour!

The area NE of Death Valley (the city) is mostly hills; there's a
double/trebble diagonal line of them of different terrain types before
the land flattens into sooooo's borders. The only resource I've seen
so far is the Copper, and with no food it's not a particularly
appealing location unless you settle to pick up a couple of DV's
Floodplains.

TBH the hill city is not a great city location other than as a blocker
for sooooo, and that is pretty-much accomplished by DV - which is a
fantastic city spot. There is also space for a decent city North of DV
at the end of the river on the coast; that would fight for the odd
tile with DV. I'm not sure if you'll pursuade sooooo to hold back from
expanding South though, he has indicated that there's snowy terrain up
North.

Dreylin.

Then I spend a good hour putting this together ...

Hi Sooooo,

Sorry about blowing you off today ... bbq, run to movies ("The Taking of Pelham 123" - totally worth seeing, language a little strong, a bit of death but good performances).

Anyway, you wanted to discuss the valley ...

"sooooo: the problem as i see it is that there's a big valley equidistant between our capitals"

... is that the valley with the copper and all of the hills / mountains or the valley with the corn and spices? I'm not sure how far West you have mapped, but the corn / spices valley is much closer to Dreylin that to either of us. Dreylin and I are currently negotiating about that valley to see who gets to settle there. To be honest, I really need this valley to just hold my own in this game - don't tell Dreylin!

I haven't been up North into your area, but you have visited my capital. As such, you should know that I have no city locations to the North of my capital. No city locations to the East of my capital (end of map) and one, maybe two with squeezy city locations to the direct South of my capital. I have to go West. Just so that I am clear ... I not Templars to just meeking accept being boxed in.

For good or for bad, Sullla put us as neighbours. Maybe there is meta-gaming involved, maybe not. I am pretty sure that any war between the two of us would be long, bloody and probably a stalemate - it would certainly cost us the game. Also, an early war would make it very difficult for you to contact mh and athlete, so you wouldn't get any tech from them. You also wouldn't get any tech from me. I am pretty sure I can talk Dreylin into not trading with you either.

<I've just re-read the above. Am I being too heavy? Maybe, but I want to be very clear about this so that there is no surprises down the track>

Now, this is not how I want to play this game. I have a client that is a very tough client to work for. He is very firm and will not take any sloppy work. However, he is extremely fair. That is how I want to play this game - firm but fair. That said, and so we don't end up just killing ourselves for other the other players protection, I would much prefer for us to work together as neighbours - and to give us both a chance of winning this game.

As such, I would like to propose a Non-Aggression Pact (terms unclear but up for discussion - but they will include free Westward passage for your units). I would further like to propose that the hills between your worker and the corn / spices location be declared a De-Militarized Zone (DMZ) - an area where neither of us will plant a city on any of those hills. That isn't much of a loss given the food situation there.

FYI - I've also attached my understanding of the map layout (v1) and Dreylin's update (v2) that show the various general locations of all of us.

Regards,

Ruff

Too forceful? About right? Full of lies? I don't know. I think I also set some groundwork for my explanation that I will provide sooooo when (if) I spy bomb him. Anyway, we'll see how this goes.

[regoarrarr]

So what is your ideal situation here, as far as who gets to settle where? The more pics the better!!!

[Ruff_Hi]

reply from sooooo ...

Hi Ruff, the "valley" I am talking about is the square piece of land bordered on 3 sides by peaks and on the north by a lake. There are 3 exits - those to me, to you and to Dreylin. It contains corn, spices, some floodpains and copper. It seems to be the only passage from me to both dreylin and yourself. I doubt Dreylin would settle there - it would be provocative in the extreme as it blocks off both of our civs.

I do appreciate that blocking you off would stop your expansion and cause a war. I don't want to do that. If you or dreylin would put a city there to block me off then that would cause a war too. I was hoping that we could come to a compromise. A city in that valley would be a pink dot for both of us and I'm pretty sure that neither of us would just let it stand like the templars did (which I was never acusing you of BTW, that's why I initiated this dialogue).

My proposal is that we both put a city in the valley and agree a NAP and demilitarised zone. It's not exactly ideal for me since I only get 1 extra city in the south but this compromise is necessary.

I have to say that it's not particularly easy to suggest two city sites, since there are only 2 resources down there. But my proposal is this: You put down a city in the SE of the valley to get the corn, since that resource is closest to you. I get a city in the north of it with a couple of floodplains but no resources. Not sure about the spices. We both agree not to culture bomb or massively pump culture there (library etc is fine), agree a NAP and a free passage deal through the valley.

It's probably best to compromise like this so we can concentrate our early game on workers etc rather than chariots and axes.

If you broadly agree to this then we can haggle over the exact city sites. I am aware that I am Creative and I will not try to culturally oppress your city with its placement.

sooooo

following reply sent. sooooo and I are due to discuss via IM in an hour or so.

sooooo,

Thank you for your email. It certainly wasn't as heavy as mine was (after reading it again today - gee written word is hard to get the tone right with) - sorry about that.

For your information, Dreylin and I have reached an agreement regarding the corn / spice valley (btw, Dreylin has dubbed this valley 'Death Valley' and I am using it for ease of communication) in question - to be honest, we reached this agreement over the week end and I didn't want to tip this information to you too soon without knowing more of your plans regarding this valley (sorry about the white lie :D).

He has agreed to cede (or seed if you like the farmer's pun) me the corn site in return for me ceding him the incense land (South of a double row of peaks that is the Southern border of Death Valley) plus a perma-trade of the spice. The actual city location Dreylin and I have agreed on is 1NE of the Northern Spice.

From reading your message above - I take it that you are suggesting I also take the spices / corn site. Maybe not the exact tile that Dreylin and I have agreed on, but in that general location.

As you said, there isn't much room in this valley for another city. Are you talking about settling in the NW or the NE of this valley. From what I know of that region, there isn't much (any?) food there. In fact, this whole map is food deprived. I only have 4 food tiles and one of those is sugar (which is a bit of a stretch to count as food).

If we can get this agreement inked, then I would be happy with a NAP and a free passage deal through the valley.

Ruff

[Ruff_Hi]

So what is your ideal situation here, as far as who gets to settle where? The more pics the better!!!

No idea. And I would post a pic but I haven't scouted the region yet. My scouts are heading back to light that exact place up. Dreylin has provided some descriptions but I am negotiating blind here a little - don't tell sooooo.

I really want 1NE of Northern Spice as Dreylin and I have agreed. I expect that Sooooo will try and push me back 1 tile South to free up the north for him. He will have to buy that move off me as I did off Dreylin.

From discussions with Dreylin, there is a site 4N, 2W of my selected city site that would only share 1 tile with a sooooo city - it will be interesting to see the cultural battle over that 1 tile. If we do share that tile, I would suggest that we farm it so that we don't fight too hard over a town at that location.

[Ruff_Hi]

just sent Dreylin a copy of my email to sooooo from last night and a copy of the one I sent him this morning. Is this a wise move? Am I revealing too much? I really want to work with Dreylin and build trust so I don't want there to be much hidden between us.

I also included this "... and I know that I have stuff in here like 'don't tell Dreylin' but that is gamesmanship with sooooo!"

Can I please go back to just talking to Templar now - that was a lot easier than this.

[Ruff_Hi]

Had a long chat with sooooo re Death Valley. I'll post the longer text later with discussion but here is the summary

ruff_hi: I settle 1E of Northern Spice
ruff_hi: you settle 4N, 1W (desert hill?) of Corn
ruff_hi: we share / culturally fight for 1 farmed (!) floodplain - expect this to be yours 75% of the time
ruff_hi: oh - and NW of DV is clear land

ruff_hi: summary:
ruff_hi: NAP - 15 turns minimum
ruff_hi: 15 turns notice of NON-renewal
ruff_hi: right of passage
ruff_hi: also - what does a NAP mean? No wars. What about pillage / sabourtage?
sooooo: yeah none of them. don't poison my wells you!
ruff_hi: no harmful spying activities?
sooooo: heh, yep

and finally, on Dreylin's name for this location ...

sooooo: yes. free right of passage for us both through death valley
sooooo: or DEATH valley as we should call it
ruff_hi: more like BLOODY valley in an aussie accent!
ruff_hi: stupid game
sooooo: i won't settle anything else in your lands
sooooo: FLAMING MONGREL valley?
ruff_hi: sure
sooooo: yep
ruff_hi: Bastard Sullla Valley?
sooooo: BS DEATH valley

[Ruff_Hi]

ruff_hi: sooooo - you there? I should have some time to talk in about 2.5 hrs (12:30 my time) ... I'll try and send you an email about then too ... just to kick off the conversation
sooooo: hello
sooooo: that time should be ok.
ruff_hi: ok - will buzz you about then
ruff_hi: just sent you a reply to your email - good to discuss at 12:30 my time - about 75 mins from now
sooooo: ok, got it and still good for 12.30 your time.
sooooo: ready whenever you are - i've got a picture open of the Death Valley: have lunch - ready to type
ruff_hi: any comments on my email from this morning?
sooooo: not really. i expect things to work out fine
ruff_hi: ok - then, let me just say that I have decided to declare war on you and will accept all land South of your capital as a peace offering?
ruff_hi: will that work?
ruff_hi: ok, so, the Templar gambit isn't going to work then
sooooo: sounds good to me!
ruff_hi: lol
sooooo: I'll roleplay the templars here if you like
sooooo: I'm training to be a diplomat doncha know
ruff_hi: re DV ... how do you feel about the city site Dreylin and I ahve been discussing
ruff_hi: thought you were trained in making fertilizer bombs
sooooo: well yes.
ruff_hi: oh ... Audin ... right!
sooooo: 1 NE of the spices you say ...
ruff_hi: of the Northern spice
sooooo: hmm, not really space for another city for me unless we clash
sooooo: i had a thought about you having 2 cities down there
ruff_hi: well - are you looking E or W?
ruff_hi: for your city in DV
sooooo: 1 in your "door" to DV and 1 at the spices
ruff_hi: 1 in my door doesn't line up well with my other dot mapping
ruff_hi: there is a bunch of mountains there and I do have a site marked a few tiles back from DV
sooooo: i presume your first city is horses+corn?
ruff_hi: yes
sooooo: right, so the next one can be 1E or 1NE of the corn
sooooo: no other food in that corridor for another city - may as well catch the corn
ruff_hi: wait - which Corn are you talking about now?
sooooo: oh, now i'm talking about DV's corn
sooooo: sorry
sooooo: your first city get the corn next to your capital.
ruff_hi: grabbing map - wait 1
ruff_hi: back
sooooo: not that i want to dotmap your land .. that's quite presumpuous.
ruff_hi: I did look at 1E or NE of the corn but that will miss some nice hills to the E
sooooo: you only miss one
sooooo: you get 5 hills with that spot
sooooo: wait, 6 hills
sooooo: no, 7 hills
ruff_hi: I am looking at putting a a city in those hills - no food but grassland that I can irrigate
ruff_hi: I know - lots of grassland hills
ruff_hi: and it fits nicely with my 2nd city
sooooo: then you put a city to get those hills + the 2 flood plains
sooooo: works out nicely for you as far as i can see
sooooo: (i mean the 2 floodplains near you)
ruff_hi: hey - are we talkinga bout DV or the valley with the horses?
ruff_hi:
sooooo: oh, there's 3 floodplains
sooooo: ok ok
sooooo: point taken

Started with a joke to try and ease any tension that my first email might have started. It seemed to work as we traded a few funnies about various games. We then started on the general discussion on DV and sooooo got right off track - wanting to work through my whole dot mapping process - all the way back to my capital.

Anyway ...

ruff_hi: so ... are you looking at city lcoation in N of DV ... W or E or both W and E?
sooooo: I want one city in the north of DV that gets a couple of floodplains and some grass river tiles
sooooo: you can have the corn, but to get the spices too it's quite difficult
sooooo: so that's why i suggested you put 2 cities down to get both
ruff_hi: there are 3 FPs in DV in a row, 2 tiles N of corn - correct?
sooooo: yes
ruff_hi: if I go for 2 cities in DV, I will have to totally renigo iwth Dreylin
sooooo: i want a city in the row 4N of the corn
sooooo: that gets the FPS in my second ring
sooooo: dreylin? for me dreylin would never put a city in that valley
sooooo: it would get eaten up instantly by both of us
ruff_hi: ah - that is too close to the 1NE of Northern spices location isn't it
sooooo: who conceded to get that agreement with dreylin? (not asking for exact details if you don't want to give them)
ruff_hi: point is argueable - we probably both conceded
ruff_hi: have you seen Dreylin's 2nd city location?
sooooo: aye, he expanded towards us
ruff_hi: founded on hill with peaks to his N, W and S picks up gems
ruff_hi: can you see that tile
sooooo: sorry i don't have it on the map i am looking at
sooooo: i don't have the game on this computer
sooooo: i may have scouted it - not sure
ruff_hi: ok - 5 W, 1 S of Southern Spice
sooooo: ok
ruff_hi: any city I go to pick up both spices will push onto that city and / or pick up lots of peaks
sooooo: right, ok, i understand
ruff_hi: there are 5 grassland river tiles in NW of DV - happy to ceded those to you
ruff_hi: would like them myself ... but
sooooo: so ... you for me you could settle 1E of the corn and pick up peaks. or you could settle 1NE of the corn for a nicer city and then not get spices with that city and we could come up with some compensation
sooooo: sorry,
sooooo: first bit shoudl have said 1W of the corn
ruff_hi: 1NE of the corn is an almost non-starter as I have a city location picked 2 tiles E of that - already sandpitted that city out and I think it will be a very nice city
sooooo: you wouldn't be willing to change the location of a resourceless city?
ruff_hi: what tile is 1W of teh Northern spice - my map is hiding it
sooooo: it's a flood plains
ruff_hi: thx
ruff_hi: funny question but moving off grassland hill to grassland flat costs me 1 food to start with and more after irrigation
ruff_hi: talk about picking at tiny things like that!
sooooo: ?
ruff_hi: what about pushing your desired location (4N of Corn) back North 1 row and I push the city location 1 S
sooooo: hmm
sooooo: that gets me zero floodplains
sooooo: i could move W or E to avoid clashing
sooooo: I'm happy with most of that row 4N of the corn
ruff_hi: 4NW of Corn?
sooooo: that's a whole row of peaks. I'm happy with 4N of the northern spices
sooooo: and you go 1S of your first spot
sooooo: then we clash over 1 FP
sooooo: you get 1, I get 1 and we "share" one
ruff_hi: re your "you wouldn't be willing to change the location of a resourceless city?" - current plan is to put city on grassland hill, converting that 1F tile into 2F tile - would need to put it on grassland flat, no gain in food and loss of future farm"
sooooo: ok, fine, i won't argue that point any further
ruff_hi: let me look
sooooo: oh, wait
sooooo: i think my wires were crossed
sooooo: i thought you meant 2E of the spices but you meant 1E of the spices
ruff_hi: I do
sooooo: hmm
ruff_hi: difficult
sooooo: ok, i you want that city then i suggest I go 4N, 1W of the corn
sooooo: so you get 2 FPs, I get 1 and we share 1
ruff_hi: let me look at that - still other things to discuss
ruff_hi: like ... W of DV
ruff_hi: and the shared floodplain
sooooo: ok
ruff_hi: I would suggest that any tile we share (HA!) we farm so that we don't raise the price of the tile we share
sooooo: sounds good to me
ruff_hi: 1 sec - phone
sooooo: ok
ruff_hi: back
ruff_hi: ok, I move to tile 1E of Northern spice
ruff_hi: you take 4N, 1W of corn
sooooo: agreed
ruff_hi: wait
ruff_hi: jsut summarizing

This was pretty funny - I was just summarising our conversation and sooooo assumed it was an agreement.

sooooo: ok
sooooo: need to discuss RoP and NAP etc
ruff_hi: got to say that 1E of Northern spices doesn't really float my boat as a city location
sooooo: no. I wanted to settle 1NW of the corn
sooooo: but compromise is necessary
ruff_hi: ok ... what about this ...
sooooo: still pretty good city, really nice at size 7 with 2 hill, 1.5 FP, corn, spice. less good at size 13+
ruff_hi: sorry - phone again
sooooo: whoops, i meant 2.5 FP
ruff_hi: what about I settle 2E of the Northern Spice and you take 4NW of the corn - no clash at all
ruff_hi: you get grassland, 1FP, hills
sooooo: i much prefer the first deal and think it's better for you too. 2E of the spice loses the floodplains 1W of the spice
ruff_hi: we sould both have 6 peaks
ruff_hi: yes - but picks up another hill
ruff_hi: I don't see our cities growing that big with food and happy issues on this map
sooooo: that site has 2 FP for you and 1 for me. the first has 2.5 you and 1.5 for me
ruff_hi: but it also leaves the E of DV open for you
ruff_hi: the stack of hills and copper
sooooo: i have to say i don't like that city for me as much since it is further away from my core
sooooo: i mean ... i could have that city and another city 4 N of the corn
sooooo: probably you wouldn't like that.
ruff_hi: true
ruff_hi: can we ring up Sullla and ask for another row of tiles in here pls
sooooo: lol.
sooooo: still think best solution is first deal, 1E of spices for you and 4N, 1W of corn for me
sooooo: and we farm the shared FP
ruff_hi: and teh W of DV?
sooooo: don't really care
ruff_hi: that city site is still open
ruff_hi: really?
sooooo: we leave it unclaimed. how about that

And I think this is were we agreed to the city locations that I mentioned earlier.

ruff_hi: going into this, I was thinking that you would push me back 1 tile from 1NE fo N spice - as I said earlier, I 'paid' dreylin a bit for this site so I was thinking of asking for some form of compensation from you
ruff_hi: not that you were involved int he original ruff / Dreylin deal ... but
sooooo: well, please don't take this the wrong way
sooooo: but i wouldn't have paid dreylin not to settle in DV. he wouldn't be so provocative to settle in there
sooooo: but i do take your point
sooooo: things are different here. if you claim the whole of DV then dreylin won't DoW on you. I would. so I don't think it's fair to claim compensation
sooooo: we are sharing the land in the interest of peace
sooooo: both of us have equal claim to it, so i don't see a need for compensation
ruff_hi: say - why are you so hot on settling South anyway - don't you have tracks of land in the N, W and E of where you are?
sooooo: you have a much bigger claim for that land than dreylin
sooooo: lol
sooooo: plenty of land up there. about 2 food resources
sooooo: if we agree open borders then I'll show you around but pack your thermal underwear
ruff_hi: don't talk to me about lack of food resources - that blasted map script / maker!

As you can see, I was trying to get some compensation - but sooooo wasn't having a bar of it - he seemed really dug in about this and wouldn't even give a tiny amount of compensation. I did mention 45g in the next 25 turns but he said NO. Should have said 10g to see how cheap he is :D.

sooooo: it's a typical highlands map
ruff_hi: is it highlands?
sooooo: i wouldn't have chosen pericles if i'd have known it was highlands
ruff_hi: the game doesn't tell you once it starts from a scenario
sooooo: yes, 3 rows of terrain horizontally
sooooo: north 1/4 is tundra
sooooo: middle half is temperate
sooooo: bottom 1/4 is jungle
sooooo: typical of highlands map script
ruff_hi: well - I can certainly agree to that
sooooo: you go the nice jungley quarter
sooooo: i'm stuck with the tundra
ruff_hi: swap?
sooooo: sure!
ruff_hi: ok - how do we arrange that?
ruff_hi: just walk everyone S and N and take each other cities
ruff_hi: or swap civs too
sooooo: lol, i'm sure we can arrange that
sooooo: i want your fast workers
sooooo: you can have some phalanxes

another funny aside here about us swapping places - it would be difficult ... probably just impossible.

ruff_hi: anyway - still thinking of compensation - note that it doesn't have to be land
sooooo: my point was that there should be no compensation because we have equal claim. but i'm happy to discuss future resource or trade deals
sooooo: what sort of NAP did you have in mind BTW?
ruff_hi: longish - war at quick pace is a killer
sooooo: yeah. esp in highlands
ruff_hi: we are on turn 45 or so now?
sooooo: about 42 i thought
sooooo: my map says turn 30, but that's not true!
ruff_hi: rounding - that is what I do
ruff_hi: ok, here is my thinking ... (and I am still thinking compensation )
ruff_hi: 1 settle 1E of Northern Spice
ruff_hi: you settle 4N, 1W (desert hill?) of Corn
ruff_hi: we share / culturally fight for 1 farmed (!) floodplain - expect this to be yours 75% of the time
sooooo: i do admire your negotiation skills - have you thought of applying for the apprentice?
ruff_hi: you pay me 45 gold within 25 turns as compensation (almost typed 30 gold but then remembered my scriptures)
ruff_hi: (are you saying I am a little like a dog with a bone?)
sooooo: always aim high!
sooooo: that's what they say
ruff_hi: well - sort of set the scene with that first email of mine didn't I
ruff_hi: wanted to set the picture so we were all clear
sooooo: no compensation. agree to the cities.
sooooo: you have no more right to compensation than I do.
ruff_hi: oh come on - 45 gold in 25 turns is nothing
ruff_hi: I have to get something for moving off that tile
ruff_hi: I feel a little Japanese here - looking to save some face
sooooo: let's not do this ruff
ruff_hi: ok, its not a deal breaker

see - not even a penny!

ruff_hi: so - city locations as per above, farmed FP and that is it
sooooo: yes. free right of passage for us both through death valley
sooooo: or DEATH valley as we should call it
ruff_hi: more like BLOODY valley in an aussie accent!
ruff_hi: stupid game
sooooo: i won't settle anything else in your lands
sooooo: FLAMING MONGREL valley?
ruff_hi: oh - and NW of DV is clear land
ruff_hi: sure
sooooo: yep
ruff_hi: Bastard Sullla Valley?
sooooo: BS DEATH valle
sooooo: y
sooooo: it is so named. tell Dreylin.
ruff_hi: ok - you happy with all of this?
sooooo: yep
sooooo: NAP?
ruff_hi: get what you want?
ruff_hi: oh - right
sooooo: worked out ok
ruff_hi: right of passage - check
ruff_hi: NAP ... duration?
sooooo: err
ruff_hi: renewal?
sooooo: secret of negotiaion is to let other person propose first. i learnt that from apprentice
ruff_hi: who proposed first here?
sooooo: you can
ruff_hi: oh - here
sooooo: i'm already married though.
ruff_hi: now totally confused

Did sooooo just say he couldn't marry because he is already married. I am sure there are ways around this ... but I wasn't interested in that anyway. It was actually a pretty funny little aside.

ruff_hi: you tlaking NAP arne't you
sooooo: sure. what NAP do you ideally want?
ruff_hi: sorry - phone again
sooooo: ok, np
sooooo: you're a popular man!
ruff_hi: ok, feel like setting some boundaries
ruff_hi: 5 turns is too short
ruff_hi: 105 is too long
sooooo: 30 turns NAP with 20 turns renewal
sooooo: dammnit!
ruff_hi: heehee
sooooo: you got me to suggest first

I am pretty sure that he did this because he got by far the best deal in the city locations. Looking at my city - it is pretty crap - 6 peaks, not many hammers. I will not be investing much in this location as it will be the first city to go when / if any war breaks out. It certainly sticks out from my other cities like a finger to get cut off.

ruff_hi: I love my phone!
sooooo: maybe 40 + 20?
ruff_hi: the renewal clause ... is that 10 fixed and then 20 until notification of cancelation?
ruff_hi: the renewal clause always confuses me
sooooo: not sure what you mean
ruff_hi: ok, stay with 30+20 for each of discussion
ruff_hi: 15 turns in, you say that you want to get out ouf NAP, then the total length of NAP is 35 turns?
sooooo: hmm
ruff_hi: is that what the 20 turns renewal means
sooooo: i'm not really sure what i meant by 20 renewal tbh
ruff_hi: or does it mean 30, then another 20 and another 20?
ruff_hi: for me, NAPs all hinge on the 'notice of cancellation' clause
sooooo: how about you say what you want? I don't really mind. just don't want to have to mass military in the early game
ruff_hi: too long and too short causes problems
sooooo: since you have the experience with these things ...
ruff_hi: ok, lets say we agree on a 15 turn renewal clause (ha! far from it)
ruff_hi: with a 15 turn minimum NAP
ruff_hi: so, with these numbers, the earliest we can cancel the NAP is turn 30
ruff_hi: by saying anywhere in turns 1-15 - :"I hate this - this is done!"
sooooo: so we have to give 15 turns notice
ruff_hi: yes
sooooo: right, i think i understand
ruff_hi: too long? too short?
sooooo: it's ok by me.

And we have agreed a NAP in 20 lines of chat - pretty quick.

ruff_hi: summary:
ruff_hi: NAP - 15 turns minimum
ruff_hi: 15 turns notice of NON-renewal
ruff_hi: right of passage
ruff_hi: also - what does a NAP mean? No wars. What about pillage / sabourtage?
sooooo: yeah none of them. don't poison my wells you!
ruff_hi: no harmful spying activities?
sooooo: heh, yep
ruff_hi: ok, that is fair

This is HUGE! See the comment about 'harmful' spying. Note that I didn't say 'only passive spying'. Now we just have to argue about the meaning of 'harmful'. Obviously, I will be arguing that stealing tech is not harmful. Sure, it is an opportunity cost, but sooooo hasn't actually lost anything if I do steal some tech.

ruff_hi: no sitting bull in this game
sooooo: or ragnar - he's the worst!
ruff_hi: really - SB always does it to me
ruff_hi: were you the sponsor in that long American game ... or was that T-Hawk?
sooooo: t-hawk
ruff_hi: SB was my naighbour in that and I ran the spy slider really heavily in that game - he was never an issue after he started to try to match me
ruff_hi: ok, anything else?
sooooo: no, i think we're done
sooooo: i would say "nice talking to you" but that was rather stressful
ruff_hi: great - I will call off 'Opereration Isolate Sooooo'
sooooo: hopefully we can talk about nicer things in the futrue
ruff_hi: yes - I think it is downhill from here from 'pivetal part of game'
sooooo: ok, cya ruff I'll go and find something for my tea
ruff_hi: and 'Op Is Soo' was a joke - just so we are clear
sooooo: lol. I won't tell you about mt Op Is Ruff then
ruff_hi: now I have to parse the above and post it to the forum for our lurkers
sooooo: good. that means i don't have to.
ruff_hi: btw - Dreylin and I are having a post count battle
sooooo: if you want I could come into your thread and post?
ruff_hi: so I will probably spread this stuff over a good 10 posts
sooooo:
ruff_hi: post - fine
ruff_hi: read - no thx
sooooo: was kidding
ruff_hi:

and that was it.

ruff_hi: 1 quickie - you follow cricket much?
sooooo: yep
ruff_hi: looking forward to ashes
sooooo: indeed!
sooooo: first test is in wales bizarrely
ruff_hi: ok, lets have some Civ4 in-game side bets once we have currency!
sooooo: will probably rain
ruff_hi: and the tests are late in the year too
sooooo: ok. got to go, bye
ruff_hi: see ya

A possibility of a small wager on the ashes test matches to be played in England. And this is probably the only way for sooooo to actually pay me when Australia wipe the floor with the English.

[Sullla]

sooooo: FLAMING MONGREL valley?
ruff_hi: sure
sooooo: yep
ruff_hi: Bastard Sullla Valley?
sooooo: BS DEATH valley

Should I feel honored or offended by this exchange?