[SPOILERS] The Kaiser Strikes back! A Bigger Germany is better

[waterbat]

Rowain, Scooter, Mattimeo, TT were all on today. My reasons for not talking to them:

1) Rowain: If we're about to hit Norway - no need for talk
2) Scooter: He already agreed to let us hit Norway - great!
3) Mattimeo: what would we have to say to Turkey at this point? - although it seems the winds are shifting - turkey could be down to 5 cores THIS WINTER if he isnt careful.
4) TT: couldnt come up with a reason - plus also our last conversation talked about helping into VIE if necessary.

As we suspected - TT is brokering the deal between Rowain and Tatan. Not sure he is getting anything specific out of it this winter - in fact it sounds like they won't make a coordinated move against SER this fall - which is odd. WHat might occur is a big standoff with Rowain getting SEV back, i guess. Hard to say - we don't know what Rowain's Turkish relationship is like. If the three lesser powers turn on Turkey in a coordinated fashion, Mattimeo's may to need to reach out to one of them for help in 1904.






Chat with TT.

12:15 PM
me: hello TT!

jbtwinkletoes89: hey

me: oh - i still have this message up:
12:16 PM
Jack: If you would consider moving into BOH to help me into Vie in the fall that would be helpful

it sounds like that is no longer necessary

jbtwinkletoes89: nope

managed to convince Tatan to help and abandon Turkey

me: you mean Rowain?
12:17 PM
jbtwinkletoes89: no - tatan was sticking with turkey initially so I was going to attack him with Rowain

but he is now convinced that Turkey needs checking

me: oh yes, Well, after Tatan got stabbed, i guess it was apparent
12:18 PM
So, we were planning on just holding in BOH, but wanted to let you know we hadn't forgot about you
12:19 PM
forgotten*

jbtwinkletoes89: Ok - holding in Boh is ok - just don't bounce Tatan out of Vie when he gets it given back

me: oh - so then you discussed Tatan moving into it?
12:20 PM
we were more afraid of boucing rowain into keeping it - i.e. if we did BOH->GAL or something silly

jbtwinkletoes89: Tatan will move back I believe

me: ahh was hoping for something more exciting with your coordination - i.e. you guys could take SER
12:21 PM
jbtwinkletoes89: Maybe, but unfortunately I need these two to build up some trust first

me: understood

can tell from our missives that you are brokering that trust
12:22 PM
good luck!

jbtwinkletoes89: thanks - hopefully will only need a little bit!

[Bigger]

email from tatan:

TT says that he has gotten Rowain to agree to move out of Vie on his own, to free up those armies for attacking the south. There's a very good chance that I would lose a core anyway if I moved in on Vie, so I've decided to take the risk that Rowain is being honest. So I guess your guy should hold? Sorry for having him come all this way only to do nothing.

-Archduke Tatan

not sure its really prudent of him to let me know, as I could now easily walk in and take VIE. I won't, as I won't hold it and don't see the point really. I guess that means Tatan really does trust me.


Anyway, what do w/ the BOH army now? even so I guess BOH is better than SIL for now, so maybe just hold?

oh my evening plans got cancelled so i guess I'll be on up to the deadline, submit my moves in last hour per usual

[waterbat]

i was thinking hold in BOH at first, but I have a feeling that building an ARMY in BERLIN and taking NORWAY might tip Rowain off to our plan to roll armies in his direction.

Moving to SIL might cause Rowain to disband the NORWAY fleet, move A MOS->STP and rebuild an ARMY in WAR. Not moving into SIL and he might not do something so drastic.

[Bigger]

yeah, good points. seems smart to stay put in BOH. ill probably support tatan, even tho he's not moving in, so I can make it seem like I'm out of the loop.

[Bigger]

convo between me and waterbat, stretched over a couple of days

water: heh - check your email
Sent at 7:05 PM on Thursday
me: k
water: funny we both probed tatan about SER - did you see my chat with TT about it? posted in thread
sounds like it might not happen
me: i don't know why
but yeah you may be right
for one thing, Tatan isn't exactly reliable checking in time to make last minute changes
im a little nervous that Rowain will lie and just stay put in VIE too, but we'll see
water: well, its ok if he does
nothing we can do about it
TT said he thought Tatan would move into the square anyway
maybe we should support just in case
me: yes, I plan to. not moving to SIL or GAL so might as well
Sent at 7:08 PM on Thursday
water: heh just read the short post in the thread - we really are on the same page
me:
Sent at 7:19 PM on Thursday
me: guess I should send in moves heh
surprised scooter didn't ask me to move to Tyr, to support him into venice
we can consider that in the spring tho, I suppose
Sent at 8:30 PM on Thursday
water: agreed
Sent at 3:03 AM on Friday
me: eh, i was afraid england would support into nth, keeping me from coming back in
but I guess that means scooter got into WAL
water: yeah - i saw that too
but it was worth it i think
me: looks like rowain did indeed leave VIE, but into BUD
water: WTF happened in the south again? TT and Tatan not on the same page?
again?
me: oh well, tatan will be abvle to retreat into vie
ill check
water: no
he can't
he's destroyed
me: oh
well then he can build in vie
same thing
water: can't retreat into the square that the move that dislodged you came from
no he can't
2 cores
2 units
me: oh
well regardless he keeps vie
and i dont feel guilty about stabbing rowain
water: haha for the winter
me: maybe he'll support me into vie, since he's dying anyway
water: 3 russian units can move in though
me: no
war doesnt reach vie
water: oh thought he had GAL BUD and UKR
im not looking at the map
me: man
i may need to consider building in MUN instead of BER
water: agreed
me: get a presence down there, italy may be in trouble before scooter can even reach him
water: my first thought after seeing what went down was MUN
me: TT is just as screwed as tatan
water: indeed
but again - WTF
we told them both to consider taking SER
and they could have done so
and messed it up
me: yup
water: would be completely different if tatan had supported TT into it - then there would be 2 armies for Italy in the balkans and he would have some say as to what went on
me: 2 turns in a row they thought the other person was supporting them i guess
or both greedy
water: although - it was silly of us not to suspect that Rowain was in tighter with Turkey than he was letting on
me: almost makes me wish I did take VIE.. they sure aren't managing there armies down there very well, I coulda built in MUN and BER and surely done better
water: i mean - the fall and spring moves were tight - why would the fall moves differ
me: oh I suspected it, just didn't concern me as much as them
hehe
water: TT thought Rowain was his ally - even AFTER Fall 1902 and SPring 1903
me: well he's just grasping for straws there, doesn't have a choice but to try
water: yeah - but even in his chat to me (i posted) he says something about finally convincing Tatan to abandon Turkey
me: kinda wish scooter had waited until spring to move maoto TYS
TT's is gonna see the threat too soon
water: well - duh - Tatan just got stabbed by turkey - what was he supposed to do at that point?
me: with the PIE move I guess it doesnt matter
water: no doesnt matter
italy is crushed
me: yes
water: but by whom?
me: hiopefully scooter
water: i say we move on TYR and help
me: really, I can't even consider stabbing scooter, maybe when we start winning, but without an opportunity its going to shape up to GF vs RT very soon
water: also - im slightly thinking that we should tell scooter to mop up england on his own
and move agressively to norther russia
if our endgame is a F-G split
it might be in FG's best interests to do so
me: well
EDI would be awkward for him to get and just slow him down in the south
and I can get it easily next fall
and I do prefer parity or germany having +1 (latter prob more likely)
water: yeah, but wouldnt you rather have STP and have 1 english dude sitting in EDI playing with himself?
me: well
lmao
nice words
if thats the case than I'd just leave him be and get him after I take STP
water: im tired - no filter anymore
me: not leave it to scooter
water: yes - that an option too
the other thing to watch for is a delay tactic by Rowain - like supporting EDI with his last fleet up there
or supporting him into NTH
bouncing us again
me: I just realized
its possible I can't take EDI this year anyway
if molach disbands army
and pulls hte same trick in the spring, I can only get support of 2 on NTH in the spring
water: you can get 3
in spring
but rowain can cut one
me: oh yes
water: that's what i mean
rowain can delay us
me: well
well
hopefully
Rowain broke even w/ me stealing norway, so he can't build, again
so he may either move it back towards stp, or just disband it and build in stp
if he doesnt my SWE army can march in there through finland
or else he'll have to move the war or gal army back to bounce me
awkward for him
water: yes definitely we do SWE->FIN this time - or SWE->NWY if we want to support that fleet into NTH
me: oh
thats even better
water: actually - that might be better
no cut from rowain
me: I could move SWE NWY, then move NWY nth?
i guess it depends if rowain disbands the ship.. i wonder if he even knows he can, that would be the best move for him
water: guarentees us NTH
shrug - i think ship retreat to STP is ok too
me: yeah but not edi
i need nth and NWG to get edi

water: nah
we get scooter to move LVP north
this turn
he cant do anything with that fleet back there anyway
he can take lon, with his army and ENG fleet, we take EDI with his fleet and our NTH fleet
me: well, it might slow down his convoy to africa
unless he builds F bre, instead of MAR
water: actually - i dont think we can be stopped by doing it that way
me: but i think he wants to buiild A MAR
water: hate to see more ships on the sea
indeed
me: yeah
Sent at 3:24 AM on Friday
me: also
if tatan had moved the BUD army and supported from TRIO he woulda taken ser himself
not sure why he supported from BUD
(bangs head)
Sent at 3:26 AM on Friday
water: yes - it makes no sense there
i think, before knowing russia + turkey's moves, i would have preferred helping italy into SER
if i was him
(tatan)
its just an extra army there
yes, i would have ended up losing a core
hmm
weird move by turkey moving back to the mainland from CON
me: huh
maybe that army was just board
bored
or he's gonna try and go off the map to invade tunis via egypt <G>
Sent at 3:31 AM on Friday
water: well he can go arround and support SEV
or switch out with the fleet there
the long way around
me: that may be his intention
but rowain won't be happy about that <g>
make the MOS stab too easy
esp if I start collapsing russia
Sent at 3:33 AM on Friday
me: hmm
since scooter doesn't need to take LON in the fall, maybe he can support me into NTH from eng in the spring?
all depends on what rowain does with that fleet tho
water: yah
me: so do we have 96 hours now? 24 for retreat, 24 for build, 48 for moves?
water: that's how i understand it
im torn between builds
we need em both - too bad we could have had that
me: well I wouldnt have held VIE even one more year anyway
probably
water: no definitely not
me: i guess we have 48 hours to decide on builds, im still torn too
water: was looking at the core count - it will be very close russia + turkey vs us + france - like 18-16
unless we pick up gains on russia
would tip the balance
me: well
that doesnt really matter unless 1 person gets 18, right?
water: actually - 17-17!
if scooter gets Tunis
and italy falls to them
me: I beleive there are 35
water: 34
i thought
me: oh
not sure, just that 18 is one over half, which could be 34 or 35 i guess
anyway scooter will get a piece of italy, at least VEN
water: yeah 34
me: also depends whether TT focuses his defense east or west
water: 1903


3


3


6


6


4


5


7
me: what the heck is that?
water: core count for Austria England France Germany Italy Russia Turkey
= 34
me: ah
water: C&P went weird
me: man
if I was TT, I would make a deal with RT, stop resisting them so I could put all efforts west to block scooter.. that would allow them to go straight for germany
although matts ships couldnt do anything, so maybe they wouldnt take it
water: i think that would allow him to live longer, yes
Sent at 3:42 AM on Friday
me: rowains on
im invisible, heh, wonder if ill get a nasty email

water: probably not
he wasnt really straightfoward with us either
me: patrick topor is gasper right?
water: yes
we don't fear R-F right? they seemed awfully close before
me: I don't, not right now anyway, scooter fears a RT alliance, as he should
and rowain is always telling me to be careful of scooter
heh
water: well yeah - now these moves are definitely confirming that this is a longer term alliance
me: and honestly I haven't seen any anti-german moves from either of them all game
water: all that crap we gave Matt about the alliance favoring Russia - he used that to his advantage and got Rowain to give him SEV in exchange for it
me: I know
water: and Rowain played Italy for a fool and Matt did his job with Tatan
pretty damn good
can we work on TT?
somehow get him to favor GF vs RT
me: I dunno
I would have to convince him scooter is attacking him rogue
water: yeah - well i meant favoring the west team vs the east team
even if its just for a turn or two
could mean the difference between who ends up with italian cores
me: I dunno
water: damn it bigger!
if only they had their shit together and convoyed that army into alb
he'd get a built in VEN i guess
but he'd still be in active combat with RT
now the way it is, he can convoy that alb army back to TUN
withdraw from the war, and turn to face the threat
Sent at 3:52 AM on Friday
me: well i just realized
tt probably can't stop scooter from taking ven, assuming scooter builds an army in MAR
then the VEN build can cooperate with me in attacking the balkans <G>
Sent at 4:11 AM on Friday
me: anyway i've got 96 hours, not gonna think about it anymore atm, ill post this in the threat

are any lurkers actually reading these things? <G>. I'll post all the emails I haven't bothered with (since waterbat was copied) if I know there's someone that wants to read them

[Mardoc]

are any lurkers actually reading these things? <G>. I'll post all the emails I haven't bothered with (since waterbat was copied) if I know there's someone that wants to read them

Me. Although I sometimes skip chats, I think I've read every e-mail that's been posted.

[pindicator]

I'll skip or skim the longer chats sometimes. Maybe a TL;DR version of the longer ones?

[waterbat]

bigger , scooter, and my two cents at the end:

Bigger:

So Im a bit annoyed Molach blocked me out of NTH, but I knew that was a possibility. Good news is that means your convoy was successful.

really annoyed at TT and Tatan either just coordinating like crap or playing poorly or something.. one of them should have have taken SER (tatan could have even done it by himself if he moves the BUD unit instead of TRI)... anyway that just means turkey will be able to put pressure on Italy too. TT and tatan will fall quickly, I fear, so hope you can get a a bigger piece of Italy then turkey, and quickly. Really looking to be a 2v2, FG vs RT rather quickly. If I can make quick gains on Russia matt may just decide to eat him whats left of him, a FG vs T would be nice .

anyway, depending on what Rowain does with the NWY flleet, I may need some help to take EDI this year (im hoping he disbands it during retreat so he can build in STP or MOS - or just retreats it to STP).

Even if he does disband it, I'll need either a support into NTH in the spring (i'll mvoe NWY into NWG, need your support to get into nth), then we can both take our english cores in the fall - or the LVP moving up to CLY to support me into EDI. If rowain decides to stick around I might need both . is that cool, if needed?
It'll be more apparent after retreat and build phases, of course.

Speaking of that, i assume you still plan to build in MAR? Looks like TT went all in vs. the east, you should be able to put great pressure whether you build a fleet or army . hopefully he doesnt make some survival deal with RT.

I haven't decided whether to build in MUN or BER yet. Do you have any thoughts?

Scooter:

Yeah, TT and Tatan look really lost over there. Seems like communication has not been great.

I think your plans are tentatively possible. I do want to see what Rowain and Molach do with retreats. I'm expecting Molach disbands army and Rowain retreats to Stp or something. Either way, England should be gone this year I think.

As for builds - yeah, I'll probably build something in Mar - either army or fleet. Obviously I'd prefer a Berlin build from you over Munich since Munich is better for handling Russia and I'd like to take Italy myself and secure my position down there. Plus the obvious of "Berlin is further away from me" .

Good stuff, things are progressing very nicely!

me:

Thanks for the note scooter.

Re: Tatan and TT
if they had coordinated Italy into SER, both those armies would be engaged in active warfare in the balkans. Now I fear TT may see the hopelessness of the situation and turtle up with a Convoy from ALB -> TUN

Was also doing some simple counting... If you take just 1 italian core, we've secured half the centers (assuming England finally succumbs). We need to make sure we get all 4 of them to definitively take the lead. A munich build seemed more flexible in that regard. If we get stymied in the west and TT turtles up, we might be in for some trouble.

Any ideas on how to get TT to commit his forces against the evil eastern empires? I can't seem to come up with anything better than "Fight Russia and Turkey so France has little resistance in taking your cores"

Its a little too subtle, i think.

It seems more likely - since you are the immediate threat to him, that he would job forces with RT and then we are definitely in for some pain.

Regards to you and yours,
Waterbat

[waterbat]

had to capture this one from Rowain:

Hi Bigger

You should have taken VIE and stay friend with Russia.
Alas it looks like you prefer war with Russia right now.
I have my doubts about the wisdom of this decision but ok.

-Rowain

[Bigger]

yes, as if we had a chance of being friends with rowain long-term :P. I guess Rowain was hoping I would turn on scooter.

btw, you didn't cc me in your reply to scooter, glad you posted it on here .

Im a bit surprised scooter is so anti-munich. I get it, he wants to be comfortable against a stab (same reason im happy he's building in mar) - but a MUN build could support him into VEN and pretty much guarantee he gets it this year.

OTOH, a ber build can put pressure on russia in the north, forcing him to pull his army off the austrian force, or else risk stp and later MOS falling.
as it is, I could certainly take STP this year if I was willing to let molach hold onto edi another year, unless Rowain pulls the war army back. and if he does that he'll have to pull GAL back to cover war. hmm.