[SPOILER] Yell0w - Rhoanna, Hippus

[Yell0w]

The big turn 100 update.

At the start of the turn the Bard event greeted me.

I would have preferred another city than Clar Marrachir but if this event would have been in a city with Money Changers or in AtM I wouldn't have taken it. So it worked out well. This Bard will turn into a GA down the road.

This is an over view of the great Hippus Empire

And all cities

In growth mode, just took two farms from Conrond Mor.

Just swapped to two Merchant Specialists, most likely for a Mathematics pop down the road.


Great potential for growth, I'm looking forward to the Bath House finishing

After the Walls it'll start on a theater to win the cultural borders war.

Well the Bard event slowed down this cities development significantly, but with two new resources it'll get better. I decided to starve this city to size 7. Thanks to the Granary it'll grow back fast.

Lacks some improvements but I've got three Workers working on that.

In hindsight this wasn't a great city plant. It'll need another 35 turns to be any good. HT->Harbor->Lighthouse and eventually a Shipyard, I doubt this city will do anything but build infrastructure for the remainder of the game.

Last but not least. Just came out of resistance, Gold will be connected in two turns. I'll pop the borders via building culture here, though this is another likely candidate for a Theater to win the culture war with Mardoc.

Next up are Graphs, Top 5 cities, Demographics, etc.

Even though this is inflated by Consumption, Markets and Money Changers, this is still pretty good compared.

Note the Spike for Molach here, that should be Governors Mansions, pretty late if you ask me. But still scary. Luckily we aren't that much behind, though our Production goes towards infra while his will be turned into Military most likely. Let's hope he won't reach Vampires until turn 109.

We are behind here for quite a while, which is mostly due to our cap. This and looking at the other graphs plus the good position on the map HK has... makes me think we might want to attack HK before turn 107 to get him to pop Sanctuary.

Hell yeah, we need to attack HK. Can't let him run his economy like that. He'll be able to reach a peaceful victory condition pretty easily while the rest of us crack skulls

We are the only ones with a wonder, I bet the Elohim will get at least BP and TGL, soonish. Maybe researching Warfare to deny others the FotT wouldn't be such a bad idea. Also the GC at MS is still available. But we've got more pressing matters, namely a bigger army. Hippus power rating should almost double over the next 10 turns (without losses).


Mardoc still in GK and Slavery, I'm looking forward to reading his spoiler thread, I have no clue why a experienced player like him - I think he's better than me - ends up last, his civ choice sure plays a big role, but still. As it stands now I plan to attack him last since he poses the least threat.

The trade routes with Mardoc, I don't know if it works like you suggested, we'll know next turn, I really wanted to get as much of Molachs borders covered with the "lone scout" since we are about to attack him, I think potential trade routes can wait another turn. Considering I just pillaged a lot of tiles close to Mardocs borders I'm quite uncertain about him accepting trade routes. I also think we'll have to build a road towards him to actually get the option for those routes.


I sincerely enjoy this game the most of all the games I've played here. And not only because I'm "in the lead" right now. I liked PBEM XXII as well, though it was decided quickly. I think the two main reasons for this are:
1. Both these games were/are without diplomacy, which is something I apparently suck hard at. Though I'm a nice guy in RL and quite diplomatic in my relationships I fail in using those skills in Civ diplomacy. Thus games without diplomacy favor me.

2. In both these games I had/have a dedlurker which I think is why I enjoyed them that much more. A dedlurker brings a second opinion in there, suggesting things I haven't thought about, noticing stuff I didn't, it's just another pair of eyes committed to the game. It makes me think a lot more about what to do and how to do it. It also is way more fun getting regular feedback on what you write and do than just doing it alone. I usually start reporting constantly and then gradually reporting less and less until I stop. I know there are a lot of lurkers out there reading all the spoiler threads, but after a while into a game it starts to feel like I'm just writing this down for myself. And even though I'm by far not the best worded or most entertaining writer here it still takes a considerable amount of time and effort to write up these reports.

[Yell0w]

Planted new city, it will almost border Molach and HK, I'll most likely attack from this direction.

I plan to attack HK at turn 105 and I have to hope that he uses Sanctuary immediately or I'll be stuck attacking him while Molach can hit back. I have to make sure that Molach can't see the new city by one of my mistakes, should he scout there, well then it should be too late to switch his Moroi to the cities I'm going to attack.

If everything works as planed I'll have beaten Molach into submission within the 20 turns Sanctuary lasts and can attack HK, who will have to switch to military as soon as he uses Sanctuary. He is in a golden age now so he'll have considerable production, but I'd rather have him spend his GA building military than anything else.

In a couple of cities I'm running out of things to build, so in cities with low hammers I started on Court Houses and in cities with decent or high hammers I started on Siege Workshops. Meaning that I'll have to research HBR next to be able to build Stables there. While I certainly could only rely on MM's I think that a couple additional Chariots and later Horse Archers can't hurt. If you got a better idea what to spend our hammers on that would be great.

Since I'm building a Theater to fight Molachs culture in Maurosbane, and I plan to build a Theater in Ultigar, there is only one Theater missing for the pre-requirement for the Theater of Dreams. I started that Theater in Radonnor, though I'm questioning if the ToD is even worth it, my thinking is that it would deny a lot of culture to HK should he try to go for cultural victory, and 1 in all cities for 335 hammers might just be worth it.

I also grew a couple of cities into unhappiness since I'll hook up gold next turn.

This is a screen shot taken after I played the turn, just to showcase the new city and HK's borders

It might just be that there isn't even a connection to HK I can't really see if the tile in his culture is water or tundra.

[Mafro]

Well, looks like things are moving again!

So...in terms of attacking HidingKneel...I absolutely hate opening up a two-front war at this stage in the game...but I think you're right. It is crucial that we force HidingKneel to use Sanctuary, or else it becomes nearly impossible to defeat him later. I also like the idea of him building units before he has forges and other buildings that would accelerate his growth. If we can force him to put his golden age hammers into units, that's a good thing. And he just got a ton of hammers.

That said, with luck we could gobble up Molach's land and get pillage gold at such a rate that we still outgrow HidingKneel.

You should be able to pop next to his borders this turn and then pop back without him being any the wiser. If we can swoop in and take a city, or even two, that'll probably force him to react to us. Then we stack Fort Mafro (nice name...now don't lose it!) with warriors to defend it from any response and immediately sweep north into Molach's land.

Speaking of Molach, I still think we need to build a road on the jungle north of Maurosbane, like, this turn...or at least be poised to. That underscores that Acaia will be the focus of our attack (which he's got to believe is coming), and should cause him to shift any spare units to defend that city. If we're not going to road that tile (and it may be too late for that), can we at least make a show of a military unit moving around up there? Maybe a warrior on the hills forest two tiles NW of Maurosbane? Right now the only military he sees is along his southern border, and we don't want him looking there.

By the way, can we hold off on allowing Fort Mafro to pop its borders until the turn we attack Molach? It'll cause the peak to come under our control, which will result in a number of tiles having visibility to us...any one of which could hold a Calabim unit. Not sure if it's due to pop borders this turn or next, but either way we should probably hold off unless we know he doesn't have visibility on the peak.

Have we made an offer of open borders to Mardoc yet? If not, can we? I think we should do it this turn, and then next turn offer trades and pop our golden age at the same time we attack HidingKneel. That's even more likely to cause HK to use Sanctuary. Mardoc's power doesn't seem to be recovering from his brief war with Suttree, so hopefully he's feeling the need for trade routes and allies.

Last item of the night - I don't get the Siege Workshops, especially in Radonnor, which could still use a Bath House. In other cities, why not put the hammers into Carnivals, which allow us to increase our happy cap, Courthouses, which improve our economy, or Training Yards so we can use excess hammers for decent city garrison units? In Feiss Mabdon a Courthouse will save us 3+ gold per turn by the time it's completed.

I think we should be using our economy to recruit our offensive force of MMs, and our excess hammers to build garrison units like Axemen (if we're not getting Archery) with which to defend our homeland from invasion while the MMs are out and about. Of course, it would be even better if we could put our hammers into growing our economy...but to do so would require researching some new tech.

Hmmm...tech.....

[Yell0w]

Well, looks like things are moving again!

HELL YEAH

So...in terms of attacking HidingKneel...I absolutely hate opening up a two-front war at this stage in the game...but I think you're right. It is crucial that we force HidingKneel to use Sanctuary, or else it becomes nearly impossible to defeat him later. I also like the idea of him building units before he has forges and other buildings that would accelerate his growth. If we can force him to put his golden age hammers into units, that's a good thing. And he just got a ton of hammers.

That said, with luck we could gobble up Molach's land and get pillage gold at such a rate that we still outgrow HidingKneel.

Yes I think it's imperative. I'll mass hire MM's on turn 105 and move into HK's lands on turn 106. I expect he'll fire sanctuary immediately, so we are free to hit Molach on turn 107, or more likely on turn 108. We'll hire about 8-9 MM's almost doubling our power rating.

Speaking of Molach, I still think we need to build a road on the jungle north of Maurosbane, like, this turn...or at least be poised to. That underscores that Acaia will be the focus of our attack (which he's got to believe is coming), and should cause him to shift any spare units to defend that city. If we're not going to road that tile (and it may be too late for that), can we at least make a show of a military unit moving around up there? Maybe a warrior on the hills forest two tiles NW of Maurosbane? Right now the only military he sees is along his southern border, and we don't want him looking there.

I wish we had Hawks...
I doubt he shifted all his defenses away by now, but he will have a good guess where an potential attack will come from anyways, when we attack HK. The MM's scouting there will be withdrawn next turn though.

By the way, can we hold off on allowing Fort Mafro to pop its borders until the turn we attack Molach? It'll cause the peak to come under our control, which will result in a number of tiles having visibility to us...any one of which could hold a Calabim unit. Not sure if it's due to pop borders this turn or next, but either way we should probably hold off unless we know he doesn't have visibility on the peak.

I think he has visibility and we could delay popping borders, I don't think it'll matter, though it doesn't really matter if we delay it either so I'll go with your plan here.

Have we made an offer of open borders to Mardoc yet? If not, can we? I think we should do it this turn, and then next turn offer trades and pop our golden age at the same time we attack HidingKneel. That's even more likely to cause HK to use Sanctuary. Mardoc's power doesn't seem to be recovering from his brief war with Suttree, so hopefully he's feeling the need for trade routes and allies.

No we haven't, I don't think we are able to trade with him now, we need that road connection which will be finished in a couple of turns. I can offer him open borders next turn, I planed to wait until the road finished, though I guess there is no reason to wait, so I'll just offer him OB next turn.

Last item of the night - I don't get the Siege Workshops, especially in Radonnor, which could still use a Bath House. In other cities, why not put the hammers into Carnivals, which allow us to increase our happy cap, Courthouses, which improve our economy, or Training Yards so we can use excess hammers for decent city garrison units? In Feiss Mabdon a Courthouse will save us 3+ gold per turn by the time it's completed.

I don't think Court Houses are really worth it in cities close to our capital. Radonnor doesn't have enough food to grow beyond size 10, and we'll reach that happiness cap long before we can grow to that size. Thus I think Bath Houses would be worthless. A Carnival is 80 hammers for 1 I simply don't think it's worth the hammers.
Siege Workshops will allow us to build Chariots down the road, so I'll build them in cities which have some hammer potential. I plan on researching HBR soonish to get stables up.

I think we should be using our economy to recruit our offensive force of MMs, and our excess hammers to build garrison units like Axemen (if we're not getting Archery) with which to defend our homeland from invasion while the MMs are out and about. Of course, it would be even better if we could put our hammers into growing our economy...but to do so would require researching some new tech.

With our vast lands we need a defensive force that can move quick or we would need loads and loads of units. I think HA's are probably the best we can field for defensive purposes. And I do plan to go for Stirrups eventually.


We hit the 200 gold per turn mark EoT

With 35 base commerce in AtM we get a whooping 81.60 commerce after modifiers. =) Keep in mind that our first position in GNP is not real though. We use a lot of that to buy units instead of teching, and if we tech our GNP drops drastically.

[Mafro]

All this sounds good to me.

I think we need to talk tech. I don't know where you've decided to head, but we're starting to put hammers into stuff we're not excited about, and the right tech could change all that. However, that tech also needs to be part of our endgame strategy.

I've suggested the arcane path to allow us to field a well-rounded army in the later game, one that can deal out both collateral damage and reduce city defenses. I still think that's an excellent option. However, I don't get the sense it appeals to you. Rather, you've mentioned Horseback Riding, Stirrups, Sailing, and that you'd like to pick up techs that would help our economy. I can certainly agree with that last bit.

In thinking along those lines, yet another option we haven't discussed is to tech towards Deception. We could pick up Sailing, Horseback Riding (optional), and Trade along the way, and then convert to Undercouncil for a nice +10% bonus to coin. We have a good chance of another Great Merchant, which means we could get Nox Noctis, which is just obnoxious (and denying it to our rivals would be great as well). I also like the fact that we could leverage our economy by being able to cash rush buildings, and we might even find it useful to buy Council of Esus spells (never done that...not sure what spells are available, or how much they cost).

The required techs would be:
Sailing - 240 beakers remaining
Writing - 363 beakers
Trade - 430 beakers
Mysticism - 191 beakers
Philosophy - 287 beakers
Deception - 938 beakers

The entire path is 2,449 beakers, which is pretty reasonable...less than what it would take to get Iron Working, much less than what we'd need for the arcane path and Sorcery. Based on our current economy it'd take about 16 turns of 100% research to complete, probably shaving a turn or two off of that due to growth.

Just for comparison, the arcane path I'd envisioned would be:
Mysticism - 191 beakers
KotE - 344 beakers
Alteration - 613 beakers
Elementalism - 613 beakers
Sorcery - 1916 beakers

That entire path is 3,677 beakers, which would take us 22 turns of 100% research.

I think our fundamental question is are we going to win by focusing on growing our economy, which would allow us to field an absolute horde of MMs? Or are we going to win by focusing on teching to a smaller, more versatile army that is better able to crack cities and defeat late-game units? I see merits to both, though I'm more comfortable with the latter.

Okay, 'nuff ramblings for now....

[Mafro]

Just got the save and it doesn't look like we're positioned to attack HidingKneel...did you decide to hold off a turn?

I was expecting a stack of 4 or 5 MMs one tile SW of Fort Mafro. From that tile, which is beyond HK's sight, it costs 3 move to get to his closest tile, looks like it is Corn, which has got to be next to a city (based on his culture). That would leave 1 move for all our MMs to attack that city, hopefully taking it. HK would open his save with a declaration of war, a fallen city, and a formidable army on his doorstep. I'm pretty sure we'd open our next save to Sanctuary having been cast.

As it stands, we can move our stack into his territory, but I don't see a way we can attack this turn (except for the one MM that is right on his border). While I'm not sure we'd want to keep the city, the gold from taking it would probably buy a MM or two.

[Yell0w]

Gah, when posting my reply I got an error, so I'll make it short.

Nox ain't worth it in my opinion.

I forgot to switch off culture growth in Fort Mafro, so it popped borders this turn.

I hired a lot of MM's this turn, and will attack HK next turn, building a road towards him.

I feel like Hawks and Trade are more important right now than Sorcery, I plan to still go for Sorcery though.

Molach offered open borders, I declined obviously.

[Mafro]

Awesome...the prep to hit HK looks great...19 MMs is a sweet force!

I also see we got open borders with Mardoc, which is great. I believe we need Sailing for trade routes though...looks like that will take two turns. I should've realized that beforehand. Of course, looks like you'll have a road done in that time, so it's not strictly necessary.

Have fun with this turn...!

[Yell0w]

We didn't get much xp out of it, I didn't want to risk a lot, so I only took one 78% battle we won, we got two promotions out of that one, which is great actually.
We also got a worker with our MM that still has Warcry =)

[Mafro]

You destroyed Tolerance!

Hey, did it yield any pillage gold? If so, it must not have been much...was it just size 1 or something? If we ever build on its ruins we should name the city Intolerance...LOL.

Did HidingKneel have Bronze on his warriors? If not, then I think he's GOT to cast Sanctuary. If so, then he might be able to put up a bit of a defense in cities with more culture, walls, etc. Any sign of Monks or anything? I'm guessing not. Also, I'm not seeing any cottages to pillage...bummer...still, if everything goes according to plan we'll be booted from his lands anyway.

Looks like the bulk of our forces are already heading towards Calabim lands. Nice. Have you chosen the exact invasion route yet?