Races, Units, Buildings

[Seravy]

Agreed on the not balancing dwarves around rich comment. (Although omg my first impossible rich game, no restarting, my capital gets 1 wild game, 1 adamantium, 1 gold mine, 1 orahilicron, and 1 coal. And has a max pop of 24. Unfreaking believable.)

The only problem with the rampaging monster option is that its either on, or off. Ideally, what I'd be interested in is a scaling effect - early games you get more raiders/monsters, but they're weak. Late game you get stronger and stronger ones. And most importantly, I want it to be myrror only, so that myrror wizards have to deal with more hazards to make up for the lack of AI wizards. Rampaging monsters/raiders would be on top of this change.

To go back to my other comment: Myrran retort gets you 3 things - better race, better ores, and more space from enemy wizards. I think 3 picks is fair, even without the bonus power.

Then again, I haven't actually tested a lot with rampaging monsters. *goes off to see what it actually does*

I think having 2 Myrran wizards is a better solution than more neutrals. The only problem with that, it shifts balance the opposite way still.
You+2 wizards = 3 people sharing resources on Myrror, while on Arcanus there are only two.
The problem with the neutrals is, it is too random and unreliable. I mean if you don't have a neutral city on your continent then raiders won't ever threaten you (except draconians). If a small city spawns, you can deal with it without problems. If the city starts with pop 15 and 9 hammerhands..even in the current system you might be better off starting a new game. Large neutral Myrran cities are a big threat even now, but they are not that common.
Unlike monsters that scale up over time and are random and independent of the source location - they only need to be the same realm - raiders don't use that mechanic. The spawned raiders will always be the same thing that is in the garrison for the neutral city and I don't think that should change. It would look silly if a city without a stables would be sending out stacks of 9 cavalry, or neutrals would make hammerhands with just a smithy. Overhauling the entire neutral city system would be way too time consuming, and by that I mean weeks and balance would still be questionable.

[Seravy]

Another 10 turns of playing.
My 9 cannons killed a lair of 6 shadow demons and a werewolf. Not a single cannon died on turn one and only one did in the entire battle. I noticed my cannons have 11 armor, so no wonder. They have 6 base, 2 from adamant, and 3 from levels (I have warlord because I'm playing impossible)...I know they would be more fragile if I was playing without adamant and warlord, but doing that on impossible...isn't testing, it's just intentional losing kinda, have to have a wizard and settings that match the difficulty I play if I intend to stand a chance.
I'm starting to think the armor on the cannon does need another -1, to go down to 5 base (which is still the best you can find on ranged normal units in the game, I just checked. Even most melee units have 5 or lower.)
I can now build Hammerhands, and the funny thing is, I don't feel doing it. Every lair around me has flying units and Cannons work better on those, or we can say hammerhands just don't work, period. I have web but cannons still sound like a superior strategy at least until I get lionheart.
Someone broke a tower but it's on a continent no one settled yet (it's 90% desert), I don't know who it is yet....and another tower broke...this will be interesting, there is a life wizard out there who is going to declare war on me because of expansionist...and a peaceful chaos wizard who is also going to declare war because the two are allies...and I still have a myrran wizard to fight. 3-way war pretty much. Offering peace to the Myrran wizard might actually be a good idea now but...her cities are so easy to take with cannons...

[namad]

I still disagree that playing rich impossible is correct for testing. Yes most players will do it, but only because they're attempting to generate a difficulty between extreme and impossible, not really because it's the default for any reason.
You're right though, you would've had adamantium in your 2nd or 3rd city but how long does it take to get a university in your 3rd city versus your first? It's a big difference. Life warlord myrran is imo a very strong start, period, if you have the free time do the same test game over again with draconians, it's quite powerful, even moreso if you reduce landmass size.

I think giving the myrran human player 2 myrran opponents would be a the BEST option rather making myrran cost 3 picks (which would also make the ai myrran's weaker). Yes, it would mean two ai's get arcanus to themselves, but all that would do would mean they might actually be able to stop your cannons However this might be impossible? (in my suggestion a human arcanus player has a game with exactly 1 myrran ai player always and a human myrran player has a game with exactly 2 myrran ai players always.)
If the above is impossible, for example you end up having 2 myrran's in every game (which I think would suck and make arcanus too easy) then I have some other ideas below:

If you don't start with adamantium and you made the cannon require mechanicans guild and university it would come online so late as to maybe be balanced? while at the same time giving every race with a miner's guild catapults early on would result in more players getting a small taste of cannon style play.

Another option, just flat out, make catapults and cannons damage blocked by missile immunity. Your complaint is that cannons have no counter, well, instead of nerfing them to be mediocre, why not just give them a counter? Magical missile immunity makes plenty of sense to me (even if the boulders are supposed to be huge).

Another another option, let catapults keep boulders and make cannons use stones (cannons irl use smaller ammo than catapults do), this would make missile immunity counter dwarves only?

[Seravy]

You're right though, you would've had adamantium in your 2nd or 3rd city but how long does it take to get a university in your 3rd city versus your first? It's a big difference.

Usually it's faster. I use the capital for making settlers and the first new city to build military buildings. So my capital is too busy to build large amounts of units - A bit different on impossible though where settling is riskier and the enemy has plenty of small cities to steal early. Also in case of university it's reverse because I build that for production in the capital (unlocks mecha guild) but I still would not build the cannons there if I have adamant elsewhere. Except for maybe 1-2 just to survive if it looks necessary.

Another option, just flat out, make catapults and cannons damage blocked by missile immunity. Your complaint is that cannons have no counter, well, instead of nerfing them to be mediocre, why not just give them a counter? Magical missile immunity makes plenty of sense to me (even if the boulders are supposed to be huge).

That would just make Missile Immunity too powerful and that would be a greater problem than one powerful unit.
Also, I'm not talking about medicore, no way. I want the cannon to be the stronger normal physical ranged unit in the game, problem is, it's currently far above that level, mainly due to the armor. At 5 armor it's still the most durable ranged normal unit in the game or at least tied for it if I consider costs (Nightmares and Air Ships are about twice as durable but twice as expensive and require more buildings...but even those do not have over 5 armor!), the current 7, and even the 6 I'm playing is probably too much.

I think giving the myrran human player 2 myrran opponents would be a much better option than making myrran cost 3 picks (which would also make the ai myrran's weaker). Yes, it would mean two ai's get arcanus to themselves, but all that would do would mean they might actually be able to stop your cannons smile

I'm tempted to go with this solution but I really want to see some test games first, at the very least generate like 10 maps and hit next turn up to 100 turns and see how much of a threat each wizard reaches on Myrror. If more than, say 1 out of 10 gets stuck, I'll probably go for it.

[namad]

Hmm, another option is to just buff all the arrows in the game, perhaps by making them boosted by some +attack spells/bonuses that don't currently effect them?
Personally I hate normal units that are just 1 figure, it's why I like jackal riders/magicians/berserkers/paladins/rangers so much, if you're say a life/sorcery wizard and can grant them +raw stats and +flight the up to 8 figures pays dividends.

It's true though that stone giants and steam cannons are lightyears above all the bowmen in the game even with every buff in the game on the bowmen. Off the top of my head though I forget which spells and abilities buff melee attack but not ranged attack (I know there's at least a couple.)
Speaking of stone giants....I just had another idea perhaps steam cannons could have 2-4 ammo instead 10? That's what keeps stone giants from being the best unit in the game. So what if the melee units can barely kill the steam cannons, if the cannons are left alone with no guards the few melee units that manage to survive will have 20 free turns to slowly chip away at the steam cannon's armor? This would also help make steam cannon's meaningfully different from catapults? Instead of them just being mega-catapults they'd be strong catapults that burnt themselves out of steam quicker?? This would also make pairing hammerhands with steam cannons a more useful strategy than using solely steam cannons?

Really though if you can just add another opponent to Myrror I think that could be good, it might backfire after testing though for unseen reasons.

[Nelphine]

I think just setting 2 opponents on Myrror always might not be bad. I was actually suggesting Myrran cost 3 picks AND make 2 opponents on Myrror - less ai wizards nearby is absolutely huge on impossible. But if you always have 2 AI wizards on your plane, it would standardize the planes a bit, and make the pick about resources + race + marginally weaker AI (which i think is still worth 2 picks.)

[Seravy]

Off the top of my head though I forget which spells and abilities buff melee attack but not ranged attack (I know there's at least a couple.)

Most that I can think of buffs arrow attacks, but not magical ranged. Lionheart, flame blade do at least (but grant 1 less ranged than melee if I remember correctly, might only be Flame Blade doing that). I think even Blazing March is +3 or 2 ranged. Berserk doesn't, obviously it's not meant for that...what other melee buffs are there...I don't think there are more. The rest buff To Hit and that works on ranged. I have this feeling I'm forgetting a bunch of abilities and you are right but...I can't think of any. There was something that only worked on arrows, but not rocks, too, what was it...I should be sleeping more lol, if I can't remember things to this extend that's no good.

I just had another idea perhaps steam cannons could have 2-4 ammo instead 10?

A good idea but my experience in the current game is, most enemies die in those 4 turns, often even in two to a stack of 9 cannons. Though it would increase the risk a lot, if the enemy summons too much crap, ammo might not be enough.

But if you always have 2 AI wizards on your plane, it would standardize the planes a bit, and make the pick about resources + race + marginally weaker AI (which i think is still worth 2 picks.)

I agree. At this point I see about 90% chance I'm going to implement this. If I can find room to add another condition there...oh well I did harder things before, I'm sure I can make some if needed.
One more thing I can add, since there is only one other wizard, but the territory is huge, they'll spread further which makes it far easier to get their border cities while they are still low on defense (even if that "low" on impossible might mean a stack of 3 ghouls and 6 swordsmen on a 1 pop city, that's still better than having to deal with stacks of 9 ghouls or 9 minotaurs close to their starting location. I finally found the Myrran wizard's capital and that continent swarms with hordes of powerful units like minotaurs and champion heroes...while I have been fighting ghouls and bowmen and an occasional minotaur or shadow demon instead) and this leads to a way stronger early game even if the territory isn't left unclaimed. In fact in my experience, letting the AI build the cities and taking them works better than building settlers, which either arrive on the spot late, or cost too much so adequate defenses are not possible and the new outpost gets lost. (by that I don't mean to only do that, but after the 2nd or 3rd settler it's usually better to stop making them...)

[namad]

IMO you have not yet proven steam cannon's to be OP, you've simply proven that EITHER: a) steam cannons are OP or b) Myrran retort is OP.

I suggested life warlord draconian as a comparison test, a control group, I thought of an even better control group for this experiment though:

Myrran, Warlord, Barbarian (consider throwing in tactican to makeup the lost points of defense, or life specialist, or neither.)
This would be the perfect control group, in theory, right now myrran costs 2 picks, 1 pick for starting on a better richer world, and 1 pick for a better race, by playing barbarian you throw away 1 pick (If you still feel OP with that pick point wasted it's likely the retort/world itself that is to blame, rather than any one good unit).

Berserkers move three times as fast as steam cannon's on the world map (they still hit flying units), you'll be able to test if this matters at all, they also require less buildings to start building your first one, and barbarian's usual flaw of poor economy, mediocre late game, is entirely negated by being a myrran. Imo, because all the neutral cities on myrror are amazingly good! There's no risk of a barbarian game in which you cannot get good neutral races under your banner.

P.S. Speaking of which, as an aside, I think dark elves might actually need another buff, they start off with such slow growth that it's perhaps better to pick a myrran race other than dark elves and just hope to find a dark elf neutral city. Trolls, Beastmen, and Draconians all have a good unrest modifier towards dark elves for example. Or you can pick dwarves and just be so rich it doesn't matter if you have minor unrest.
One major benefit of being a Myrran really is that every city you conquer will be a strong race, with no risk that you'll start on arcanus and have all the nearby neutral's be bad/weak/worthless too you.

P.P.S. Something else I realized, perhaps "Rich" minerals might be OP on Myrror, perhaps in a "Rich" game the richness should only enhance Arcanus to move it's richness towards Myrror's? Instead of letting Myrror have the double "Rich" benefit, that might be another factor at play here, perhaps "Rich" is simply OP for anyone withi the Myrran retort? Additionally Myrran retort might be OP for a huge landmass, since that means you have more space to settle cities but without hardly any opponents to fight over it with? Another reason I think testing and balance should only effect the default settings, it's hard to say what subtle race/retort combinations get powered up by various game settings.

[Seravy]

This would be the perfect control group,

Barbarians don't produce 50% faster, don't pay double taxes, can't build mechanicians guilds for faster unit production, don't have magical weapons, have low resistance, and don't produce 30-70 power from a single city settled near crystals.
Oh and a Fighter's Guild is more expensive than a University so cannons require the fewer buildings (Builder's Hall for 40 and University for I think 125 vs Fighter's Guild at 250)
I don't see how I can even think of comparing the two.

Meanwhile I implemented the two AI if player picks Myrror feature, won't have time to actually play games with it for a while (my current dwarf game will take like another 2 days, so...) but the arguments for it were solid. I admit having only 1 other player instead of 3 is such a huge advantage (especially in such a snowballing based game) that no amount of picks could reasonably pay for it (probably not even 3). Aside from you getting 50% of a plane instead of the usual 25%, it also means the wizard would would normally get 100% and be the big threat only has 50% so you have twice as much power against a half as strong enemy. (Yes that's a lot of simplification but a game is usually as hard as the strongest enemy is, unless diplomacy screws you over by forcing you into a 1v4 situation) If I were to base it on this math, Myrran makes you 4 times as powerful as normal just by this part of it.

On the other hard, it's questionable how much the "stronger race" and "better minerals" part will still be an advantage if at least the stronger half of the enemy players also have it. I guess it'll help a lot when invading Arcanus though, if those wizards happen to be able to develop to be a threat...which they have a better chance of, having 50% of a plane each for themselves while you only have 33%.

[namad]

Ah, yeah I forgot to include alchemy for the barbarians, although that was my point, would a strictly worse racial pick still end up leaving you just as OP feeling? and if there's a neutral dwarf city as the first neutral city the barbarian's see (25% chance) then yes, they can get 70 power from a single city. About half the time even barbarian myrran's will have a chance to obtain dwarven settlers to plant mega cities with. Yes, you'd be delayed a bit, but you'd still have access to 2or3 of the 4 Myrran races even as a barbarian.

That was supposed to be the point of picking Myrran barbarian's to test how powerful it is to have access to those Myrran's races even if you yourself aren't playing one in your starting city.
You might even end up with adamtanium cannons or dragons or etc even if you have to start with sucky berserkers.


The original control group idea though was draconians, and personally I think life warlord draconian is one of the stronger overall strategies in MoM, even if dwarfs were better they shouldn't be that much better, keeping in mind you still might get to plant that 70 power dwarven city even if you start as a dragon overlord.


This entire test though was just to convince you that the player starting as a Myrran was what was OP, but if you've already solved the problem of how to code it (I thought you said it might be hard) there's no need for me to keep trying to think of ways to convince you. So, I'll stop trying to convince you to code the 2 Myrran opponent's scenario, since you already succeeded at it.