41 Vice: Commodicator/Pindore

[superdeath]

Hey asshole...this sucks once. Spamming me with this offer TEN TIMES is the height of dickery.

Just wanted to say here, I had sent one last peace treaty.. then it didnt go thru so i clicked it X more times, still didnt, clicked around a bit thinking my computer had froze, turns out naufragar takes awhile to load in and thats what caused you to recieve... alot of those.

[superdeath]

But if you see Superdeath, this right here is the only path you can take. He'll destroy your game at no profit to himself, otherwise.

I was hoping to have a change of heart this time around..  

Also, im hoping the warrior eats settler incident has been remedied now?

[Zed-F]

Congrats on the win... hope luxes + growth save your gpt.

[superdeath]

Picks are in! Let's get some quick thoughts:


Superdeath (psychotic, tryhard)

 He's prone to destructive actions that don't personally benefit his own civilization, as seen in the early games of 38, 39, and 40.

Now that pb39 is done.. im very curious what i did in the early game of pb39 that was destructive to myself?

[Zed-F]

I'm guessing the early 'build WC -> harass Yuri' play that stirred up debate in the Lurker thread might be what he is referring to. Harassing neighbors to no real gain just gives you a reputation for being a maverick that can't be trusted to maintain a peaceful border. Your target builds up more defenses against you, which forces you to build up more defenses against them; other rivals that have fewer militarized borders gain advantage.

It tends to be viewed as more sensible if, before antagonizing a rival, you make sure you have enough advantage over said rival to be able to realize long-term gains from aggression, but otherwise make an attempt not to annoy your neighbors prematurely. The biggest reason Comm attacked you so early here is not simply because of a grudge but because he viewed you as untrustworthy. (Of course the circumstances of seeming to be stuck on a duel island where he had an early advantage due to PRO Mali contributed as well.)

[pindicator]

(Of course the circumstances of seeming to be stuck on a duel island where he had an early advantage due to PRO Mali contributed as well.)

I think that part had more to do with it -- at least in my eyes, that's why I was all on board for the rush.

I'm not sure if we captured this well, but Commodore and I had several spirited discussions about whether or not to offer peace after the initial attack bogged down, and at several points during the crunch. The reasons for pursuing this to the bitter end were that we were unsure that superdeath just wouldn't turn his game around to being a thorn in our side, and the reasons argued for peace were that it was putting us in a big hole economically now. So with that all behind us, I have a question for superdeath: How would you have reacted if we had signed peace around t70? That would have been After taking your border city and settling the pig/wheat/stone location but before taking any of your offshore cities?

[Commodore]

Zed-F and Pindicator pretty much nailed it. Duel island, you had nowhere to turn, and no trust that you wouldn't get a rush of blood to the head at a completely random juncture and just bushwack something somewhere. Some people you can neighbor; you can leave an unguarded worker on the border. Naufragar and us are there right now. I don't think Naufragar will never attack us, and he doesn't think we'll never hit him. But if we attack, it will be for an objective. Likewise, if he attacks I'm sure he'll be trying to achieve something.

In any case, we're at last in a time of peace. Not of ease, really...BGNu just got circumnavigation, Confucianism fell in the fog, and someone somewhere borders Donovan Zoi...but still, we can focus for a while on development. Twelves cities, lots of land, no economy to speak of whatsoever. 

Pindicator and I have been discussing what needs to come next. An Operation Fiscal Jackhammer© needs to get initiated shortly, but without Science and Wealth builds there's no mere growing out of this. To that end, the plan:
1. Grow and scrape together enough commerce to land Alphabet. Have FIVE SETTLERS mostly built before Alphabet falls.
2. Strike-stutter on wealth. That's work enough commerce to avoid strike, then strike while building research, then back to commerce, then building research, etc. Units only start getting lost to strikes upon the second turn of striking. Do this to get Currency.
3. Upon landing Currency, SETTLE FIVE MORE CITIES THAT TURN, in locations North of King, South of Johnson, Superdead Island Horse, First-Ring Fishcorn, and North of Hamlin. This will be sustainable, if only just, and brings up to a so-so 17 cities.
4. Strike-stutter further to Code of Laws and/or Metal Casing. Mints are +2 happy AND +10% gold, which is huge in this economy. Courthouses, well, it's obvious. Superdead Island has enough forests for a fast Forbidden Palace, when needed.
5. There are currently 8 cottages active, with 2 more being built. Current and planned cities are looking at 36 total cottages down and worked by 4 commerce cities. Burr, Gerry, Hamlin, and Superdead Island Horse have extensive riverlands and plenty of dry flat too. If at all doable, I want all three dozen cottages WORKED BY TURN 130. That's going to be our economic core along with with the Moai city, King; everything else get ruthlessly workshop/mine/watermilled. 
6. ???
7. Profit!

That's the plan, or at least the vision statement. If a good luxury city is found soon then that'll be pushed for ASAP; I expect we'll need Monarchy sooner rather than later though.

[superdeath]

I'm guessing the early 'build WC -> harass Yuri' play that stirred up debate in the Lurker thread might be what he is referring to. Harassing neighbors to no real gain just gives you a reputation for being a maverick that can't be trusted to maintain a peaceful border. Your target builds up more defenses against you, which forces you to build up more defenses against them; other rivals that have fewer militarized borders gain advantage.

It tends to be viewed as more sensible if, before antagonizing a rival, you make sure you have enough advantage over said rival to be able to realize long-term gains from aggression, but otherwise make an attempt not to annoy your neighbors prematurely. The biggest reason Comm attacked you so early here is not simply because of a grudge but because he viewed you as untrustworthy. (Of course the circumstances of seeming to be stuck on a duel island where he had an early advantage due to PRO Mali contributed as well.)

Ill have to re-read what i might have wrote, but from what i can remember that WC was just to escort the scout that he ended up killing.

(Of course the circumstances of seeming to be stuck on a duel island where he had an early advantage due to PRO Mali contributed as well.)

I think that part had more to do with it -- at least in my eyes, that's why I was all on board for the rush.

I'm not sure if we captured this well, but Commodore and I had several spirited discussions about whether or not to offer peace after the initial attack bogged down, and at several points during the crunch. The reasons for pursuing this to the bitter end were that we were unsure that superdeath just wouldn't turn his game around to being a thorn in our side, and the reasons argued for peace were that it was putting us in a big hole economically now. So with that all behind us, I have a question for superdeath: How would you have reacted if we had signed peace around t70? That would have been After taking your border city and settling the pig/wheat/stone location but before taking any of your offshore cities?

I would have been mostly content to take to the seas. Maybe try and be not totally ass-backwards? I was mostly caught off guard by the combat 3 galley.. that explains the double fish + mine city down south.. if i had thought more cautiously, vs long term i woulda whipped out another galley down there turns before everything went south.
Most of my mistakes were thinking long term, instead of making sure i make it there. Such as the copper city :P But nonetheless, GG and i hope you guys pull off the win!

[Commodore]

Welp, before we look at winning, we need to look at "more than 1 gpt income".


We have scouted north, too. The dotmap is going to shift, the implicit claim that this land is OUR LAND shan't. RBmod being what it is, this jungle nexus means production, not commerce, as we workshop all this.

It's going to be hard to hold this land with BGN up north (Culture view shows that barb city got captured). On the other hand, we have a nice pile of horse archers and super-veterans. We're not going to be going far and wide seeking trouble, but if trouble comes knocking...

[superdeath]

Whats the tech path?