[SPOILERS]- Crazy Keelyn is trippin’ Balz: Bobchillingworth of the Balseraphs

[Bobchillingworth]

Yes, you have said that a few times. It seems to me to be a long way off, but you're the best judge of the current threat level.

Guess what? I'm probably going to end up doing what you originally suggested anyway



Got an email from Iskender, and then had a brief chat. I'm expecting a follow-up response from him (at which point I'll post all of the conversation here), but the summary for right now is that it looks like he wants Deception as well. Apparently you can wane Gibbon and he'll still be able to cast spells as a shade, and won't disappear after you switch faiths. I'm pretty sure that he'll beat me to the tech unless I blow my worldspell, which I don't want to, so it's time to look at other tech options.



What do you think about this- I keep the next four techs the same as I had previously; BW, Fishing, KotE, Sailing. I need those for defense, expansion, and economy. Then possibly writing as a cheap econ tech.


After that, it's onwards to the Veil as you suggested- I'll convert before actually researching Corruption of the Spirit & I'll hold off for a little while on building Rosier, to disguise my true tech path. Then I'll go for priesthood, again as you suggested. Maybe HBR at this point and declare on Serdoa if I think that I can take him.

And then- here's where it gets interesting. I'll fire off my worldspell while popping a Great Whatever for a combined 3X length golden age, research Fanaticism, research Infernal Pact, build the grimoire, convert to Slavery, and destroy everyone with some combination of hastily constructed Beasts / Eiodlon (or however you spell it), Rosier, Ritualists, and Madero.


Totally wastes my summoner trait, but honestly who cares? Surely this plan will get results more quickly than the slower path I had envisioned of grabbing every Overlords goody in the tree for the Ultimate Defense and then making some sort of cumbersome attempt at a cultural or tower win. This would be much simpler.


Biggest issues are that A: it still takes a ton of techs and my worldspell only helps so much, B: it paints a giant target on me as soon as someone realizes what's going on, and C: someone else might try to get the Gimoire first. But point C leads into some of the beauty of this plan- I think that I might be able to spin it into a legitimate attempt at religious win if I can't just kill everyone. Serdoa needs the Veil. The Clan likely covet it. Square Leg has told me that he'll convert if I send him a savant, and the same is true for Sareln. And I'm trying to convince Iskender to eventually spread it around amongst his cities in return for giving him free reign to take Deception.



So, what do you think?

[DaveV]

Sounds like a good plan. The Beasts are great units and incredibly cheap in terms of hammers. Some people might say a religion win is lame, but I say a win is a win, and there are plenty of ways to stop you from winning that way.

The thing you really have to watch out for is someone researching OO. A few Cultists could easily take out three of your six cities. You may need to grab OO yourself if that happens, since you'll have absolutely no other way to protect your coastal cities, unless you want to build a navy.

[Bobchillingworth]

Building a navy for OO defense is part of the reason why I want sailing- the other part is so that I can start colonizing islands.



I forgot that Eidolon require Iron- probably won't have that unless I can get force Hyborem to hand his over. Oh well, Beasts + Madero + regular goodies should be enough anyway. And as an added advantage, if the Veil doesn't work out, the techs I'm trying to grab work perfectly with the overlords (priesthood, fanatacism) =)



Does seem kind of weird though that if everything goes to plan I'll have gotten far more use out of Creative than Summoner. Not exactly a great game to show off what Keelyn is really capable of. Maybe I'll summon a pit beast with Madero

[Bobchillingworth]

Finally got the turn. Revolted to the Veil, I could use the happy & since I intend to follow it in earnest now I may as well switch when I'll have more turns to potentially get a free golden age.



Otherwise boring turn.

[Bobchillingworth]

Diplo update.



First, Iskender:

[COLOR="Silver"]Greetings oh wise Sorceress and Queen

Your beauty outshines that of Valledia, Os-Gabella and Sheelba (and Garrim Gyr) even more than your Score outmatches theirs. I'm writing to express my exultation over the fact that you have abandoned the savage notions of ruling the civilization all by yourself and instead decided to relegate power to an inbred degenerated clique!

I'm also writing to discuss the future of a certain individual named Gibbon Goetia. This individual approached us, apparently attracted by our exquisite taste in clothes. He was offered an exclusive Sidar Retirement Plan and found it so attractive that he made a pledge to stay with the Sidar even if we abandon his favourite little cult.

Ok, OOC now: It's not a secret that we're both interested in Gibbon. Do we make a race to Deception or try to resolve this issue somehow?

Iskender[/COLOR]

[I was momentarily confused when I first got the email because it came from a "Telesfor Pies". Wikiped + Google translate tells me that it's Polish for "Dogs brought to perfection", so I'm just going to assume that Iskender is on crack for the duration of this game ]

3:19 PM Iskender: hey. sent you a msg from my rb pbem account. i don't use this one for civ anymore

Bobchillingworth: right, just read it
was wondering who "Telesfor Pies" was :P

3:22 PM Iskender: that's my crazy alt

Bobchillingworth: Who said I want Gibbon? :P

Iskender: I did

3:23 PM Bobchillingworth: Cause' if it's "not a secret", seems implied that it's common knowledge
3:24 PM Anyway. Yes, it's true. I'm headed for him now.

3:25 PM Iskender: so it seems we're having a race

Bobchillingworth: I guess. We could maybe compare research times to see who gets there first
probably not too hard to roughly extrapolate
3:26 PM If you're sure to beat me, then I'll just research other stuff. Not like I'm lacking for options.
3:27 PM We'd have to be pretty open with each other about what techs we already have tho, and our relative research capabilities
3:28 PM (although maybe you already know all that from watching the demographics or something. I haven't bothered trying to do any "C&D" :P )

Iskender: i know that you have Animal Husbandry, but that's just a little step towards Trade
3:29 PM i'm pretty sure I'm much closer to Deception right now. otoh you have Revelry and a potential. really dunno who would get there first
but i'm not fond of the race itself. i'd also research other critical techs not in a hurry for deception

3:32 PM Bobchillingworth: Why do you want him? I think it's probably pretty obvious why he's a nice catch for me summoner, pupper-wielding civ, but he's kind of a big diversion if you're just going to use a couple Tier III spells and then wane him.

3:33 PM Iskender: after I wane him i can switch religion and he doesn't leave
3:34 PM he still can cast spells as a shade

Bobchillingworth: oh, cool
didn't realize shades could fight...

3:35 PM Iskender: fight not really, his strength is 2 i think, but he still can cast

3:37 PM Bobchillingworth: Perhaps one of us should then offer the other something for gaurenteed rights to getting Deception first.

3:38 PM Iskender: unfortunately we don't even have a trade connection
3:39 PM and probably won't have for a long time

Bobchillingworth: Well, we aren't that far away. I'm sure we will eventually
I don't have immediate need for a mana trade or something right now, anyway
3:40 PM there's also other forms of favors- I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd go for the Veil after deception and spread it around, for example

Iskender: hm, that's doable
3:41 PM so you'd guarantee not to get deception first if i spread AV to my cities?

3:42 PM Bobchillingworth: we'd need a timeframe- doesn't help me if you delay getting the veil for a really long time and then only spread it to a couple towns.

Iskender: yes, that's understandable

Bobchillingworth: would you be willing to go for the veil right after deception & spread it to all of your towns?
3:43 PM I get the impression that you might stick with the Veil as a main faith anyway. It's always a nice option.

Iskender: i don't know if right after, there are some critical techs i would like to get even before deception if i didn't have to rush for it

3:44 PM Bobchillingworth: How soon do you think you could manage it, roughly speaking?

3:45 PM Iskender: i would rather not disclose that

Bobchillingworth: Heh. "15-20 turns" doesn't really tell me much about what your research capacity or tech plans are :P

3:46 PM Iskender: but it would tell you if you have a chance at getting Dec first

3:48 PM Bobchillingworth: I think I could probably get there first regardless if I blew my worldspell. If what you tell me indicates that I could be first, I'll still stick with our deal.

Iskender: don't get misled by the GNP shown in demographics. my culture output is minimal

3:49 PM Bobchillingworth: Well, yeah.
3:52 PM I don't think that it's unreasonable for me to ask for a reasonably accurate estimate of when I could expect you to start spreading the Veil, though

3:54 PM Iskender: i don't really know at the moment. i'd like to get stuff like sanitation first. but it seems you're interested rather in leaving me deception instead of securing it for yourself

3:55 PM Bobchillingworth: Sure, if I can get a consolation prize.
3:56 PM I'm fine with you picking up a couple reasonably cheap econ techs after Deception, if you maintain a beeline right for it. Less fine with you screwing around with poisons or other religions or other expensive non-essentials first.

3:57 PM Iskender: frankly, now it sounds more like you were not really interested in Dec but want to get something out of it anyway

Bobchillingworth: Nah, I still want deception, and I'm still going to continue researching straight for it if we don't agree to something
3:58 PM the techs along the way are useful enough to me even if I miss out.
So if I'm going to take myself out of the running and gaurantee that you'll get the faith, then I want something in return.
4:00 PM You spreading the veil after deception seems like a win-win for both of us. I get some more freedom in my tech path and eventually some more holy city beakers. You are assured of obtaining Gibbon and the Veil is a sweet religion anyway.

4:02 PM Iskender: i'll think about it. i dont want to make any critical decisions on the chat. it didn't serve me well in the past
i'll write you a msg

Bobchillingworth: Sure, that's fine

4:03 PM Iskender: say hello to Dave! you guys are playing an impressive economy game so far

4:04 PM Bobchillingworth: haha, thanks. I've also been pretty lucky :P
always nice when your two deadly neighbors go off and fight ill-concieved wars against other people
4:05 PM I'm sure you can agree

Iskender: i guess that AH was a hut or a graveyard
yeah

Bobchillingworth: No... I researched AH as my first tech, but I got calendar on like turn two or three

Iskender: wow
4:06 PM i noobily left my hut unexplored and then sareln's scout grabbed it
4:07 PM anyway, gotta go

Bobchillingworth: ttyl

Iskender: cheers

[I didn't have the patience to color-code the chat, but I added some spaces so it's hopefully more legible than a straight dump. ]

[COLOR="silver"]Hey Bob and Dave

I gave thought to your AV proposal and I must say I'm not interested. A recent acquisition from a dungeon directs long term Sidar spiritual development towards other religions.

Iskender[/COLOR]

[Sigh, where to start? First off no turns elapsed between his initial email, our chat, and his ultimate decision. So his "oh I released a religious guy or whatever from a lair recently" excuse is BS- no reason he couldn't have just told me that he wouldn't have been interested in my proposal because of this back when we had our chat. And I'm not sure what's with him emailing me to say that he wants some sort of deal so that we don't race, then telling me in chat when I do offer him a deal that it indicates to him that I'm not interested in Deception at all, and then sending me a final email saying that he's not interested in a deal and apparently doesn't have any counter proposal. What a waste of time. Oh, and I'm also apparently "Bob and Dave". Perhaps he was just trying to be cordial, but given the utter lack of respect he evidently had for me in his PBEM I thread, I'm much more inclined to take his salutation as a not-so-subtle dig at my Civ skills, that there's no way I could be beating everyone so badly at everything without special assistance. Well. There was only one way to reply to this] :

Sure. Unless you have a counter proposal of some sort, I guess it's a race then! Best of luck to you & Mr. Yellow! :D

[Arf arf, Mr. Pies. Perhaps he'll see through my bluff, or perhaps he'll take me seriously, go full-speed toward Deception, and delay those "critical" techs he had hoped to research first. I really couldn't care less either way. ]




Oh, and Serdoa of all people sent me a reply:

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Hi Bob,

I know I probably am the worst player to do diplo right now, sorry for that. To make up for it, I'll make it short and blunt: I do not want to sign NAPs. Not because I intend to attack you (would be suicide and I have no economy at all and have to rebuild it first) but because I simply don't want to tie my hands when I pratically know nothing about whats going on in this game. I haven't talked to anyone for an eternity and still need to scout several parts of our map, so I'd rather get that finished and have an idea what is going on before I talk about NAPs or alliances.

Nonetheless, I am sure we can find some mutual benefical trades and look forward to that.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Heya,


No problem, I appreciate your forwardness. My offer of cooperation wasn't contingent on having an NAP, so if there's a deal you have in mind, just send me an email and/or propose in game, and I'll weigh it over. Having trade routes first might help, though- don't be alarmed if you see me roading toward you


I'm of course happy to discuss alliances and such at a later date. Until then, be assured that I don't have any aggressive intentions toward your empire either.


-Bobchillingworth [/COLOR]

[My response was mostly genuine. I'm a long way from Ritualists and a dependable combat army right now, so no reason to be anything but friendly with him. I'll have plenty more turns to make up my mind about what I want to do regarding the Sheaim. Also lol at him trying to reassure me by outright stating that he'll only think of attacking me *after* his economy improves. It's fairly obvious that that's the case, but man Serdoa you still don't need to actually tell me that ]

[Bobchillingworth]

My empire has just been steadily building, with little of interest happening.



World news is much more interesting. I think this brief chat with Sareln sums it up pretty well:

me: freaks are so cool

[COLOR="Magenta"]Sareln: It's a son

I'm so boned

C5, Extension 1

= Fire Elemental Mv. 3[/COLOR]
12:19 AM
me: oh shit :|

[COLOR="Magenta"]Sareln: so he's camping his units out of vision and just sending in the summon each turn...
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"]me: and here I was about to brag about my new strong, heroic defense freak

he's still one move, right?

so, unless the archers are covering, you can rush him[/COLOR]
12:20 AM
[COLOR="Magenta"]Sareln: archers covering

I'll send the picture out at some point

it's amusing[/COLOR]

me: heh. yeah, you are probably doomed.
12:21 AM
[COLOR="Magenta"]Sareln: yeah

I don't think the terrain will cooperate with me to coordinate a hit

actually I cna't even do that

since sons are base str. 8![/COLOR]
12:22 AM
[COLOR="Yellow"]me: btw sl has gone from three cities to two again

and serdoa is now at four

it is as it sounds[/COLOR]

Sareln: tough deal then...

[COLOR="Yellow"]me: yeah.
12:23 AM
I guess you can't get to hyborem in time?[/COLOR]
12:24 AM
[COLOR="Magenta"]Sareln: umm, no

not by a longshot
12:25 AM
anyways, turns played, g2g

ciao![/COLOR]

Apologies about the formatting being a little strange there. Not sure why G-chat decided to add random spaces between some of the lines.



Anyway, if it isn't clear from the context of the chat, Sareln's "it's a son" refers to his worst fears being realized and the Clan depositing a Son of the Inferno near his empire from a galley by way of Acheron Island.


I'm still figuring out what this means for me, but a few preliminary thoughts-


* Sareln is dead. Utterly, totally. He can blow his world spell to save himself a little bit of time (and make me lose 6 beakers per turn for the duration due to blocked inspirations...), but he's just going to eventually lose one warrior per turn to fire elementals and then eventually die. His only hope I think will be the pop the worldspell, build as many warriors as possible, and then send a hasted suicide stack of them at the 2X goblin archers and CV Son. But not only would he need a hell of a lot of them, but that assumes the Clan won't just reinforce first with some extra warriors or whatever. And even if he was successful, he'll be so depleted and backwards that a stiff breeze (or Gibbon the Shade) could easily finish him off. The other option is for him to vassalize to the Clan, assuming they're interested.


* I'm probably not going to bother trying to save Sareln again. I don't want rescuing civs and collecting vassals to become my "thing", and I have no idea where I'd want to reboot him anyway, or where I even could; the island to my west is too close to the Clan, and the east will just piss off Serdoa. Sadly this means that his mana will be lost, and all three Amurite types are rather nice for summoners. On a happier note, I'm utterly mad and don't intend to use mages for a really long time anyway, so it doesn't hurt *quite* as bad. Although I'd still really like body mana.


* Tredje's offering me that NAP now seems more like a gesture of incredible mercy more than anything else. And my annoying him initially was accidentally brilliant- by using his worldspell earlier than he had intended to get a choke ready for me (allegedly, anyway), he ended up with only one Son (apparently) instead of potentially quite a few more, and I got a life-saving NAP.


* Speaking of which, that NAP ends in exactly 20 turns. So I'll need to have something capable of dealing with a Combat V, Spell extension, probably body I Son of the Inferno by then. I'm kind of at a loss here... maybe Rosier if I can get him ready in time? I had helped to construct him later, but whatever it takes to survive. Chariots or HA would work, but that's nowhere near where I want to be researching now. Looking for an NAP extension is probably definitely a good idea.


* Oh and the Clan can soon go around Vitalizing all of their abundant land. Wonderful.


* Meanwhile apparently SL's peace deal with Serdoa involved giving him a city, so the Sheaim now have four. My diplomatic situation is looking a little worse now. My best buddy is on the way out. Iskender is at best "icy", to use Civ 2's favourite AI relationship status, SL is weak and sounds like the puppet of Serdoa, Serdoa is inscrutable and not particularly trustworthy, and Tredje is an enigma as well. It was fun when the world went nuts and all of my neighbors got involved in stupid early-game wars... less fun now that the civs I like best have lost / are losing




Oh and someone founded the Leaves. Probably Iskender, going by our previous conversation. Not sure why anyone would bother founding it otherwise.

[DaveV]

Yet another reason not to put Acheron in the game. For the Horde is potentially a very good worldspell, but it's ridiculously overpowered if you can pick up free archmages with it.

Oh and the Clan can soon go around Vitalizing all of their abundant land. Wonderful.

Not for quite a long time. The percent chance of a Son of the Inferno getting a passive XP gain is 90-XP, so there's a diminishing return effect. Presumably he already has at least 50 XP to account for all the promotions (you're at Monarch difficulty, so no free promotions, right?), so he needs to gain a lot of XP for three more promotions, and the XP will come slower and slower.

All that said, it's going to be an extremely tough unit to deal with. His strength is actually 5+3 fire, so Selrahc's Pyre Zombies would have a bit of an advantage against him. Other fire resistant units: imps, sand lions, balors. Units that are immune to fire: azers, fire elementals, fireballs, Meshabber. I don't see any of those being a short term answer.

Possible counter: mass skeletons. As I said earlier, each adept can summon three skeletons by using his puppets, and you could afford to throw them away to wear him down. Rosier should be able to get decent though not unbeatable odds, but will need some promotions first to deal with an opponent who's already at combat 5. Plus, he'll probably have some other units stacked with the Son, and they may well defend ahead of a channeling 3 unit. This means a mass attack is more likely to succeed than a single super unit. Maybe it's time to go back to a summoning strategy.

[Bobchillingworth]

Yet another reason not to put Acheron in the game. For the Horde is potentially a very good worldspell, but it's ridiculously overpowered if you can pick up free archmages with it.

Yuuuuup. I didn't think that you could actually do that still- wasn't patch N supposed to have fixed that? In fact, I'm pretty sure that making sure you couldn't capture the Sons was most of the point of patch N. Maybe O reverted it for some reason? Sigh.



Regarding how to kill the Son- my issue with skeletons is that his fire elemental can move 3 tiles a turn- so he could bombard me from a distance, and then just retreat when the undead advance.



Oh, and I'm chatting with SL right now, and he says that the Clan actually have *three* Sons of the Inferno. GG

[DaveV]

I didn't think that you could actually do that still- wasn't patch N supposed to have fixed that? In fact, I'm pretty sure that making sure you couldn't capture the Sons was most of the point of patch N. Maybe O reverted it for some reason? Sigh.

I think the patch gave them an automatic Loyalty promotion to keep people from using Dominate to grab a bunch of extra archmages in the late game. Unfortunately, you can still grab them with For the Horde. Oops.

Oh, and I'm chatting with SL right now, and he says that the Clan actually have *three* Sons of the Inferno.

Coalition time? If you all gang up on him and use Arcane Lacuna, there might still be a chance. Or start posting in the tech thread and ask him to delete them in the interest of fair play.

[Bobchillingworth]

SL is looking into a coalition, but it's unlikely to happen. Tredje has very cleverly set up staggered NAP's with me, SL, and Iskender- and mine expires first. So we couldn't coordinate anything all at once together. I'll post the relevant diplo later- there's a lot of it.


I won't ask Tredje to delete the Son(s); it wouldn't be fair, after he's set up his entire game plan about utilizing them. I hadn't intended them to ever be usable in this game (unless you were going to dispel their Loyalty and then capture them the old-fashioned way, which would require much more tech), but that's just how it goes. None of the other players brought up any objections either when we were setting up the match.



Two questions:


First, if a Son on a boat sails right up next to a city, would he be able to summon a fire elemental to attack it?


Second, do Halls of Mirrors work against elementals?