Hearthstone

[SevenSpirits]

Yeah 21 decks is a ton to have viable at the same time.

If you want more viable decks, the way to do it is to change the parameters more often. Introduce new cards, tweak and remove old cards, etc. It's way more effective than trying to miraculously have more decks viable simultaneously. This is MTG's model: add and remove cards frequently to change up the environment.

Another example is Dominion. In a given game there are probably only one or a few viable strategies, but you play with different parameters each game. Similar to that model, there is an online 2-player game called Prismata that has a random set of options available to both players in a given game, but is fully deterministic after choosing the starting player! Super nonrandom (not just removing random draws, but ACTUALLY nonrandom), but still lots of viable strategies just because every game has different parameters.

I presonally prefer to have the extra element of skill that randomness adds, though.

[Kuro]

As someone who has been playing card games for something like 10 years of my life, I just wanted to say that 21 decks is actually a pretty crazy amount of decks to have viable.

In Yu-Gi-Oh's prime days, there would generally be only 5 or so "Tier 1 Decks" and only some viable "Tier 1.5" decks. In MTG, it's rare for a single format to have double digit viable decks, and AFAIK Hearthstone's current card count is about equal to comparing with a single Standard format.

Non-random draw presents the issue that it not only restricts what a player can do, as once a best strategy is found there is no reason to mess with it much when you can always draw it, but that is also heavily restricts card design: No draw smoothing, much less card draw (As non-random draws would allow you to power through your deck), significantly less of things like mana acceleration (Imagine if you could get your Wild Growth or mana dork out every time without fail!), significantly less removal and combo decks would be non-existant because you could have the pieces far too easily and that is just off the top of my head. TCGs at their core require strategems that do not properly mesh with a format that does not have huge non-random variables, when compared to something like an RPG, a MOBA or what have you.

EDIT: Also in a world with non-random draws like you said, Pirates would be significantly worse off: How do Pirates deal with, say, a Druid who begins every game with Innervate Coin Yeti into Wild Growth into Yeti into perfect curve draws and always getting your Ancient of Lore etc on time?

[flugauto]

I can see how you would think that decks relying on combos become better when draws are nonrandom. But I don't see how you're making the jump to "more decks will be viable". I'm pretty sure that decks are only viable if their power level is close to that of the best deck. My guess is that stacking decks increases power level disparities and therefore means that fewer decks are viable. What is your reasoning?

Power level? Best deck? A deck is viable if it can get its winning condition. When it is a random draw, the deck has only a chance to get its winning condition; the lower the chance, the less viable the deck is. There are many decks with a low chance to get a winning condition. A non-random draw mode makes these low chance decks viable.

Agreed with SevenSpirits. Even if a pirate deck is viable on ladder perfect draws (maybe but probably not), pirates are definitely not viable if your opponent is also getting perfect draws!

And I dunno 21 decks seems like a bunch to me. I can play almost any playstyle I want and always have multiple classes/decks to choose from. I'm a little sad I can't run a weapon/pirate but that's about that tribal's power level, not rng.

A pirate deck is combo, you need to play the cards in a way that uses their synergy. The chance to randomly get the right draw is not high, that is why a pirate deck is not viable in a random mode.

[Kuro]

I can see how you would think that decks relying on combos become better when draws are nonrandom. But I don't see how you're making the jump to "more decks will be viable". I'm pretty sure that decks are only viable if their power level is close to that of the best deck. My guess is that stacking decks increases power level disparities and therefore means that fewer decks are viable. What is your reasoning?

Power level? Best deck? A deck is viable if it can get its winning condition. When it is a random draw, the deck has only a chance to get its winning condition; the lower the chance, the less viable the deck is. There are many decks with a low chance to get a winning condition. A non-random draw mode makes these low chance decks viable.

Agreed with SevenSpirits. Even if a pirate deck is viable on ladder perfect draws (maybe but probably not), pirates are definitely not viable if your opponent is also getting perfect draws!

And I dunno 21 decks seems like a bunch to me. I can play almost any playstyle I want and always have multiple classes/decks to choose from. I'm a little sad I can't run a weapon/pirate but that's about that tribal's power level, not rng.

A pirate deck is combo, you need to play the cards in a way that uses their synergy. The chance to randomly get the right draw is not high, that is why a pirate deck is not viable in a random mode.

The thing is that Pirate deck's combo is so weak that in a world of perfect draws it is less viable because even when you get the right draw, you will not win, and without the randomness this wlll happen every time, as every match will essentially feature the same draws.

A deck is not viable just for getting its winning condition, it also has to have a GOOD winning condition. Merely having "the ability to win" only makes the deck viable in the sense that it exists, as almost every deck in existance can in theory win. Pirates suffer from not having a good winning condition and this is only made obvious in a format that would have a higher power level than current AKA a non-random format. Pirates wouldn't even be a niche in such a format.

How would Pirates, even with perfect draws, possibly handle matchups with Control Warrior, Druid or what have you without teching out so hard against them that it ceases to even be a Pirate deck and that it loses to every deck that isn't the one it is facing at the time?

[flugauto]

EDIT: Also in a world with non-random draws like you said, Pirates would be significantly worse off: How do Pirates deal with, say, a Druid who begins every game with Innervate Coin Yeti into Wild Growth into Yeti into perfect curve draws and always getting your Ancient of Lore etc on time?

1. You cannot always have coin.
2. A warrior has execute, shield slam, brawl, weapons. A rogue has sap, assassinate, prep.

[Kuro]

EDIT: Also in a world with non-random draws like you said, Pirates would be significantly worse off: How do Pirates deal with, say, a Druid who begins every game with Innervate Coin Yeti into Wild Growth into Yeti into perfect curve draws and always getting your Ancient of Lore etc on time?

1. You cannot always have coin.
2. A warrior has execute, shield slam, brawl, weapons. A rogue has sap, assassinate, prep.

How do Pirates win though, even with those?

Let us assume you double Execute the Yeti somehow, maybe with a Whirlwind. Now they go Druid of the Claw. Then they do that into Sylvanas Windrunner. Then they do that into Ancient of Lore. And Dr. Boom after or Ragnaros. And so on. Mana curve doesn't exist in a non-random format, as you never have to worry about getting big cards "too early".

You could in theory remove all of them, but at that point:

A. The deck is ceasing to be Pirates at all, as you are just using things like Warrior class cards in a Control Warrior fashion to remove the board and

B. There's going to be more creatures in the Druid deck than there will be in the Pirate deck. They will likely all be extremely high impact because you do not need to worry about your mana curve when you can choose the cards you draw, since once you hit, for example, Turn 5, you will ALWAYS be able to draw a 5 mana card, and you will never draw it beforehand. Meanwhile, that much removal doesn't exist much...and even if it did, you'd just be removing threats and not putting much out, while they can get FoN + Savage Roar any two turns by deciding to draw it, not to mention just plain having creatures survive. The actual Pirates cannot put much threat out when they can get removed when needed (Just draw a Wrath!) due to not being high impact in general, while needing more combos for ultimately less effect. It will not work.

[flugauto]

I can see how you would think that decks relying on combos become better when draws are nonrandom. But I don't see how you're making the jump to "more decks will be viable". I'm pretty sure that decks are only viable if their power level is close to that of the best deck. My guess is that stacking decks increases power level disparities and therefore means that fewer decks are viable. What is your reasoning?

Power level? Best deck? A deck is viable if it can get its winning condition. When it is a random draw, the deck has only a chance to get its winning condition; the lower the chance, the less viable the deck is. There are many decks with a low chance to get a winning condition. A non-random draw mode makes these low chance decks viable.

Agreed with SevenSpirits. Even if a pirate deck is viable on ladder perfect draws (maybe but probably not), pirates are definitely not viable if your opponent is also getting perfect draws!

And I dunno 21 decks seems like a bunch to me. I can play almost any playstyle I want and always have multiple classes/decks to choose from. I'm a little sad I can't run a weapon/pirate but that's about that tribal's power level, not rng.

A pirate deck is combo, you need to play the cards in a way that uses their synergy. The chance to randomly get the right draw is not high, that is why a pirate deck is not viable in a random mode.

The thing is that Pirate deck's combo is so weak that in a world of perfect draws it is less viable because even when you get the right draw, you will not win, and without the randomness this wlll happen every time, as every match will essentially feature the same draws.

A deck is not viable just for getting its winning condition, it also has to have a GOOD winning condition. Merely having "the ability to win" only makes the deck viable in the sense that it exists, as almost every deck in existance can in theory win. Pirates suffer from not having a good winning condition and this is only made obvious in a format that would have a higher power level than current AKA a non-random format. Pirates wouldn't even be a niche in such a format.

How would Pirates, even with perfect draws, possibly handle matchups with Control Warrior, Druid or what have you without teching out so hard against them that it ceases to even be a Pirate deck and that it loses to every deck that isn't the one it is facing at the time?

What is a weak combo? What is a GOOD winning condition?
Not every deck can handle every other deck. Maybe a pirate deck can handle Control Warrior, maybe not.

EDIT: Also in a world with non-random draws like you said, Pirates would be significantly worse off: How do Pirates deal with, say, a Druid who begins every game with Innervate Coin Yeti into Wild Growth into Yeti into perfect curve draws and always getting your Ancient of Lore etc on time?

1. You cannot always have coin.
2. A warrior has execute, shield slam, brawl, weapons. A rogue has sap, assassinate, prep.

How do Pirates win though, even with those?

Do you want to test this scenario? Then we need to decide what are the decks we are talking about, then see how they can play out.

[Kuro]

I can see how you would think that decks relying on combos become better when draws are nonrandom. But I don't see how you're making the jump to "more decks will be viable". I'm pretty sure that decks are only viable if their power level is close to that of the best deck. My guess is that stacking decks increases power level disparities and therefore means that fewer decks are viable. What is your reasoning?

Power level? Best deck? A deck is viable if it can get its winning condition. When it is a random draw, the deck has only a chance to get its winning condition; the lower the chance, the less viable the deck is. There are many decks with a low chance to get a winning condition. A non-random draw mode makes these low chance decks viable.

Agreed with SevenSpirits. Even if a pirate deck is viable on ladder perfect draws (maybe but probably not), pirates are definitely not viable if your opponent is also getting perfect draws!

And I dunno 21 decks seems like a bunch to me. I can play almost any playstyle I want and always have multiple classes/decks to choose from. I'm a little sad I can't run a weapon/pirate but that's about that tribal's power level, not rng.

A pirate deck is combo, you need to play the cards in a way that uses their synergy. The chance to randomly get the right draw is not high, that is why a pirate deck is not viable in a random mode.

The thing is that Pirate deck's combo is so weak that in a world of perfect draws it is less viable because even when you get the right draw, you will not win, and without the randomness this wlll happen every time, as every match will essentially feature the same draws.

A deck is not viable just for getting its winning condition, it also has to have a GOOD winning condition. Merely having "the ability to win" only makes the deck viable in the sense that it exists, as almost every deck in existance can in theory win. Pirates suffer from not having a good winning condition and this is only made obvious in a format that would have a higher power level than current AKA a non-random format. Pirates wouldn't even be a niche in such a format.

How would Pirates, even with perfect draws, possibly handle matchups with Control Warrior, Druid or what have you without teching out so hard against them that it ceases to even be a Pirate deck and that it loses to every deck that isn't the one it is facing at the time?

What is a weak combo? What is a GOOD winning condition?
Not every deck can handle every other deck. Maybe a pirate deck can handle Control Warrior, maybe not.

EDIT: Also in a world with non-random draws like you said, Pirates would be significantly worse off: How do Pirates deal with, say, a Druid who begins every game with Innervate Coin Yeti into Wild Growth into Yeti into perfect curve draws and always getting your Ancient of Lore etc on time?

1. You cannot always have coin.
2. A warrior has execute, shield slam, brawl, weapons. A rogue has sap, assassinate, prep.

How do Pirates win though, even with those?

Do you want to test this scenario? Then we need to decide what are the decks we are talking about, then see how they can play out.

I will suggest three decks:

A Ramp Druid
A Control Warrior
A Face Hunter

As things to fight. Something to remember is that a lot of cards would probably change when you don't have to worry about smoothing out card draw: For example, I imagine Druid would have almost exclusively 5+ cards even compared to normal outside of double Yeti for the start, Wild Growth (Only one, you do not need two when you always draw the one when you want, I imagine), and Big Game Hunter.

If we're actually doing that, then we also need to set rules on what even counts for both the decks we are talkign about AND the Pirate deck. Otherwise, it could just be argued "You add infinite tech and you can win" which is technically accurate but also requires you to see the future for what deck you will fight every time and make massive changes, and even non-randomness does not allow one to see the future.

(Also, in a non-random draw world, a weak combo is anything that does not result in huge damage, huge card advantage or anything else huge and is not a OTK without excessive setup.)

EDIT: Also I assume in the land of non-random, Ysera and Nefarian just give whatever cards you want?

[flugauto]

I will suggest three decks:

A Ramp Druid
A Control Warrior
A Face Hunter

As things to fight. Something to remember is that a lot of cards would probably change when you don't have to worry about smoothing out card draw: For example, I imagine Druid would have almost exclusively 5+ cards even compared to normal outside of double Yeti for the start, Wild Growth (Only one, you do not need two when you always draw the one when you want, I imagine), and Big Game Hunter.

If we're actually doing that, then we also need to set rules on what even counts for both the decks we are talkign about AND the Pirate deck. Otherwise, it could just be argued "You add infinite tech and you can win" which is technically accurate but also requires you to see the future for what deck you will fight every time and make massive changes, and even non-randomness does not allow one to see the future.

(Also, in a non-random draw world, a weak combo is anything that does not result in huge damage, huge card advantage or anything else huge and is not a OTK without excessive setup.)

EDIT: Also I assume in the land of non-random, Ysera and Nefarian just give whatever cards you want?

Ok, lets start wit Ramp Druid then. Make your list, 30 cards. I will try to find a pirate deck.
Ysera and Nefarian are still random. Unstable portal and Webspinner too.

[Ichabod]

Call pet into Savana Highmane FTW!