RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[Ilios]

In other news, Kalin's team increased score again, from 30 to 36. I'm gathering they discovered Mining, because they'd have discovered Hunting or Fishing the turn before if they had been researching it.

[Ilios]

i think we're on the same page but i don't really understand a couple of your objections? starting from your last point - how do we turn our scouting info to our advantage if we tell other civs [who we meet + how to meet them] for free? that's valuable info and we should be entitled to something in return.

working upwards - i didn't mention exchange of screenshots. i said that a possible way to even up the information sharing would be for THEM to share their screenshots with us

I'm just not sure how you're going to leverage our advantage in that way. They're going to give us screenshots of THEIR land, and in exchange, we'll give them information about the location of other teams? Not really a confidence building exchange... Our advantage is that we'll meet the other teams first (getting the tech discount) and having lots of options where to place our second city.

you're very correct on zara's traits nevertheless i stand by my prior statement that getting into a settler race with a CRE opponents is a losing proposition. even if you settle your desired location first, they can plop a city next to it and win the culture battle.

Don't forget that this isn't Single Player, where you can just plop your city next to the AI's and wait till it flips. IF the Ottomans would make such a move, I'd consider it an act of war and reason for us to bring them a visit, with pointy swords!

as far as a settler plan - the very first thing i said was it's too early, so we're in agreement there i think i mentioned a couple of times i'd like to see how things go diplomatically before progressing negotiations. but again i stand by my thinking that if - at some point in the next 20-30 turns - we're able to extract info on the land between our civs and their NAP offer is still on the table, it would be in our interests to agree to it in conjunction with a settlement plan.

I agree

i think the first diplo message following the standard official greetings sets the tone for the relationship so it's very important (and a great sign of cooperation) that we're discussing it in depth among us since we're the ones who initiated discussions, we can use our message to set the tone.

Most definately!

[dazedroyalty]

First of, good job on the official and and unofficial diplomacy. I'm a big fan of being clear but not overly formal which I think you captured very well in your messages. Kudos! I felt like they were giving away more information than we were.

Well met indeed!

Greetings to the mighty DIM triumvirate! We tremble in fear before your mighty scout.

Sense of humor? Check! Though the could possibly mean they aren't afraid at all, but I doubt they're trying to use that kind of subtle message.

What you report sounds very much like what Conan has seen, we fear we do not live in the land of milk and honey.

So they don't think that they have good lands nearby? I feel like we do. I hope they don't decide that they need to move closer to use to get better land.

Has Hernan by chance happened to meet any other civilizations? If so would you be so kind to let us know and possibly give us directions so that we might meet them also?

I have no problem exchanging information as long as it is mutually beneficial. Since our scout can move faster, hopefully we'll have more info. So even trading 1:1 we stay further ahead. I also think the first few turns of mutual help go far in establishing our diplomatic tone. I'd rather be more helpful now so we have more wiggle room later rather than be stingy now and wish we had some room later.

We're also wondering if you had any thoughts regarding NAPs, we're happy to discuss this further if you are interested

Per earlier discussions, I don't think we should have NAPs just to have them. We don't even see their capitol yet and it's highly unlikely we will need on any time soon. That said, I agree we will want one with them eventually. I am forever opposed to "cool down" times though. What's the point? Unless we're the underdog and don't want a surprise attack from a larger enemy.

EDIT: cross posted with Ilios

[meatbalz]

we got a bit screwed by the combat but it could've been worse. scout's maimed but we can see enemies coming from here - let's hope he can heal up long enough to withstand an attack. our early scouting ability's been crippled though



in terms of maintenance for the turn we got ag as planned, i switched rsch to AH, due in 12 as expected, although i'm not sure if we'd decided on mining or AH in the end. my vote's for AH but early BW is also very attractive so up to you guys. city grows in 1, warrior is within 2 moves in case anyone shows up (we have visibility on all tiles within 3 of the capital so zero risk).

haven't ended turn obviously. our score's up thanks to ag, our GNP is up to 21 due to the 40% discount to AH.

[Ilios]

Ok here's the revised microplan. We seem to be getting an extra beaker per turn, which allowed us to finish Agriculture a turn earlier. I wonder if it's the "free beaker" I read about in Sulla's thread...

Now in this plan, I get AH in 13 turns. Obviously in the game we get it in 12...
Still I believe it's pretty sound. If you guys could have a look at both plans, maybe point out errors.

Microplan #1 (AH-BW)

(T8 ) Dim 16/22 food, Warrior 1/15, Warrior #1 finished, Agriculture 88/108

(T9) Dim 18/22 food, Warrior 3/15, Agriculture 99/108

(T10) Dim 20/22 food, Warrior 5/15, Anim. Husb. 2/144, Agriculture discovered
(T11) Dim 0/24 food [size 2], Worker 0/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 13/144

(T12) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 6/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 24/144

(T13) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 12/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 35/144

(T14) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 18/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 46/144

(T15) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 24/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 57/144

(T16) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 30/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 68/144

(T17) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 36/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 79/144

(T18 ) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 42/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 90/144

(T19) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 48/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 101/144

(T20) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 54/60 (Warrior 7/15), Anim. Husb. 112/144

(T21) Dim 0/24 food, Warrior 7/15, Worker #1 finished, Anim. Husb. 123/144
Worker goes W Start Farm, Capital works 2/1/1 + 2/1/1 + 2/1/0
(T22) Dim 2/24 food, Warrior 10/15, Anim. Husb. 134/144

(T23) Dim 4/24 food, Warrior 13/15, Mining 1/90, Animal Husbandry discovered

(T24) Dim 6/24 food, Warrior 1/15, Warrior #2 finished, Mining 12/90

(T25) Dim 8/24 food, Warrior 4/15, Mining 23/90
Wheat farm finished, Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 2/1/1
(T26) Dim 12/24 food, Warrior 7/15, Mining 35/90
Worker goes NE Start Farm (stop working farm)

(T27) Dim 16/24 food, Warrior 10/15, Mining 47/90
Worker goes E Start Pasture
(T28 ) Dim 20/24 food, Warrior 13/15, Mining 59/90

(T29) Dim 0/26 food [size 3], Settler 1/100, Warrior #3 finished, Mining 71/90
Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 2/1/1 + 2/1/0
(T30) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 9/100, Mining 83/90
Pasture finished, Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 4/1/2 + 2/1/0
(T31) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 19/100, Bronze Working 6/173, Mining discovered
Worker goes E NE
(T32) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 29/100, Bronze Working 19/173
Worker starts Mine
(T33) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 39/100, Bronze Working 32/173

(T34) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 49/100, Bronze Working 45/173,

(T35) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 59/100, Bronze Working 58/173
Mine finished, Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 4/1/2 + 1/3/0
(T36) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 70/100, Bronze Working 72/173
Worker SE continues farm (4t left)
(T37) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 81/100, Bronze Working 86/173

(T38 ) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 92/100, Bronze Working 100/173

(T39) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 3/60, Settler #1 finished, Bronze Working 114/173
Worker finishes Farm
(T40) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 15/60, Bronze Working 128/173
Worker goes to new city
(T41) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 27/60, Bronze Working 142/173

(T42) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 39/60, Bronze Working 156/173

(T43) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 51/60, Bronze Working 170/173

(T44) Dim 0/26 food, Worker #2 finished, Bronze Working discovered

[Ilios]

Microplan #2 (BW-AH)

(T8 ) Dim 16/22 food, Warrior 1/15, Warrior #1 finished, Agriculture 88/108

(T9) Dim 18/22 food, Warrior 3/15, Agriculture 99/108

(T10) Dim 20/22 food, Warrior 5/15, Mining 0/90, Agriculture discovered

(T11) Dim 0/24 food [size 2], Worker 0/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 11/90

(T12) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 6/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 22/90

(T13) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 12/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 33/90

(T14) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 18/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 44/90

(T15) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 24/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 55/90

(T16) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 30/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 66/90

(T17) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 36/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 77/90

(T18 ) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 42/60 (Warrior 7/15), Mining 88/90

(T19) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 48/60 (Warrior 7/15), Bronze Working 8/173, Mining discovered

(T20) Dim 0/24 food, Worker 54/60 (Warrior 7/15), Bronze Working 19/173

(T21) Dim 0/24 food, Warrior 7/15, Worker #1 finished, Bronze Working 30/173
Worker goes W Start Farm, Capital works 2/1/1 + 2/1/1 + 2/1/0
(T22) Dim 2/24 food, Warrior 10/15, Bronze Working 41/173

(T23) Dim 4/24 food, Warrior 13/15, Bronze Working 52/173

(T24) Dim 6/24 food, Warrior 1/15, Warrior #2 finished, Bronze Working 63/173

(T25) Dim 8/24 food, Warrior 4/15, Bronze Working 74/173
Wheat Farm finished, Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 2/1/1
(T26) Dim 12/24 food, Warrior 7/15, Bronze Working 85/173
Worker goes NE NW

(T27) Dim 16/24 food, Warrior 10/15, Bronze Working 96/173
Worker start Mine
(T28 ) Dim 20/24 food, Warrior 13/15, Bronze Working 107/173

(T29) Dim 0/26 food [size 3], Settler 1/100, Warrior #3 finished, Bronze Working 118/173
Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 2/1/1 + 2/1/0
(T30) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 9/100, Bronze Working 129/173
Mine finished, Capital works 2/1/1 + 4/1/0 + 1/3/1 + 2/1/1
(T31) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 18/100, Bronze Working 141/173,
Worker goes SE start Farm
(T32) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 27/100, Bronze Working 153/173
Worker stops farm (still 3t left for farm)
(T33) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 36/100, Bronze Working 165/173
Worker goes SW SE
(T34) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 45/100, Animal Husbandry 2/144, Bronze Working discovered
Worker chop
(T35) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 54/100, Animal Husbandry 2/144

(T36) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 83/100, Animal Husbandry 14/144
Chop finished
(T37) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 92/100, Animal Husbandry 26/144
Worker Goes E
(T38 ) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 1/60, Settler #1 finished, Animal Husbandry 38/144
Worker chop
(T39) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 11/60, Animal Husbandry 50/144

(T40) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 41/60, Animal Husbandry 62/144
Chop finished
(T41) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 51/60, Animal Husbandry 74/144
Worker #1 moves to new city
(T42) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 1/60, Worker #2 finished, Animal Husbandry 86/144
Worker #2 goes E NE
(T43) Dim 0/26 food, Worker 11/60, Animal Husbandry 98/144
Worker #2 chop
(T44) Dim 0/26 food, , Worker 21/60, Animal Husbandry 110/144

(T45) Dim 0/26 food, , Worker 51/60, Animal Husbandry 112/144
chop finished
(T46) Dim 0/26 food, Settler 1/100, Worker # 3 finished, Animal Husbandry 124/144

[meatbalz]

hey ilios, nice plans i went and had a proper look at how tech works + posted earlier in the thread

ok guys given all the debate (read: on my behalf) + the fact we SHOULD damn be able to put together a good micro plan with all the time we have i've finally had a serious look + understood the tech mechanics

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/stra...h_research.php

what it means is, for example, for AH we know both optional techs, which gives us a 40% bonus to beakers applied to the tech. the base beakers are (whatever your total beakers are + 1)

say we're pulling 10 beakers/turn. for AH our beakers applied to it per turn once we get Ag would be (10+1) * (1.4) = 15/turn, so AH would take 12 turns

mining would be full cost but BW as ilios pointed out would only take 17 turns at 10 raw beakers output.

i think we come out ahead by taking AH first rather than mining+BW, but not by much. up to you guys.

[Ilios]

Ok around 7,5 hours left on the timer, four teams haven't ended their turns yet. Dazed, you have the deciding vote, AH first or BW first?

@MB yeah I guess I hadn't read that post very thoroughly...

[meatbalz]

Ok around 7,5 hours left on the timer, four teams haven't ended their turns yet. Dazed, you have the deciding vote, AH first or BW first?

@MB yeah I guess I hadn't read that post very thoroughly...

hey dazed, quick decision to make. second-to-last player joined the game while i was looking it over before going to bed. i know the 3 of us have been on the same wavelength but i'd rather not make this kind of decision without you, and if the game clock expires then so be it, we have an important decision to make. i've notified him, i hope the others don't take it too badly ;-) i'll post in the IT thread shortly.



like i said, i think AH first is the best choice for growth - but early slavery + chopping is very attractive as well. choose as you best see fit.

[meatbalz]

p.s. yeah, i was tipsy when i wrote that in-game chat