Okay, so chat with Sandover and his correspondence with Bob. It's lengthy (and chances are you've seen most/all of the correspondence with Bob in their threads), but I actually think it's worth the read. Gives a lot of insight into Sandover's approach to things... I'll have thoughts in the next post, because this will be lengthy enough as-is.
Sandover:: bob is... being difficult
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scooter: oh fun... whats up?
12:09 PM*
Sandover:: it seems he's really upset
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scooter: he caught me on chat for a few mins last night, and i think he's like 25% ticked and 75% confused
12:11 PM*
Sandover:: I tried to trade him units for his campaign against some very minor land gains
12:12 PM*
scooter: what'd he say to that?
12:13 PM*
Sandover:: not only is he extremely reluctant to discuss the matter, but I'm also getting the feeling he's going to retract on our previous deals
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scooter: previous deals?
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Sandover:: he owes me a great person and missionaries
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scooter: ah
12:14 PM*
so has he rejected your offer?
12:15 PM*
Sandover:: pretty much
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scooter: well thats fun... are you responding to him now or waiting for his response?
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Sandover:: just read his last email
12:16 PM*
he's basically saying I need to make it worth his while to not ruin my game
12:17 PM*
he can't ruin my game, so it's quite silly really
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scooter: brb
12:18 PM*
back
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Sandover:: "if I'm going to ruin someone's day, make it worth my while that it won't be you"
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scooter: well thats fun haha
12:19 PM*
would you be ok with forwarding me the email? you've managed to pique my curiosity haha
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Sandover:: sure
12:21 PM*
let me know what you think once you're done
<Jackpot! pause, email time:>
Bob Wrote:Okay, I'm back from work and now have time to reply to this in full.
I'm not really offended by your admission so much as I am... confused. Several things about your message don't make much sense to me, such as:
* Why the heck would TT agree (offer?) to give you such an enormous quantity of troops? If he's so already far behind in the game, 30+ catapults is such a massive expenditure of resources as to guarantee that he has no possible chance for success, especially if he has to produce them in a quick enough timeframe for you that they still retain some degree of usefulness.
* How would you even effect such a titanic transfer of units? Would he denude his land of forests in a mad chopping spree, and then you pay upkeep for 30+ units until you can move them to a useful front? Would he build nothing but catapults for a dozen turns, which you stream piecemeal to a target? That deal sounds awfully expensive, for both of you.
* More importantly, what land of mine would you even be interested in? Most of the land at our present border is wasteland, like that neutral territory south of your ivory. I can make some slight use of that land, because I have the Pyramids and can build a few farms, run a couple scientists / merchants, and call it a day, but what would that territory do for you but cost maintenance? It's mostly plains and hills, so it's not even like you could cottage everything. Anything south of my furthest ring would be a total non-starter, as those are all my core cities, and make up the entirety of what little economic and industrial base that I have.
* Why not take TT's instead? His border cities with you have better land then mine do, even if only marginally. At least all of his seem to have a food resource or two. He also has a feeble military and isn't a particularly skilled general- weak in this game by his own admission. While he is apparently offering to pay you a great deal for peace, I question whether you couldn't simply do better yourself with his land, especially as territory seems to be your main objective.
* I still owe you a great person- if you declare war on me, then you obviously forfeit your fee. Considering that I was going to keep sending you free missionaries as well, I question the wisdom of making me your enemy.
* On that same note, our nations have had something like two thousand years of peaceful and mutually beneficial trade relations. Considering that every single other civ in the game dislikes and/or fears Egypt, turning on your sole friend is bizarre opportunism at best.
* It's also worth pointing out that I'm about to wage war on your largest and most powerful competitor ! Why the hell would you even consider disrupting that? I'm like four turns from running off and attacking a nation with like 5x my GDP and twice my land to force timmy out of farmerâs gambit builder-mode, and you would put a cease to that to randomly fight the guy giving you free missionaries and a great person, and offering you trade opportunities, and giving you trade route access, and all so you can take some shitty resource-free garbage land that even the barbarians refuse to settle and seriously what the fuck man.
...
Well. Here is my "counter-offer": I'm not too interested in giving you any cities that I already own. I don't like the idea of giving up land without a fight, I don't want to give up my sole port town or Overwatch Nexus (which with rep actually gives me a decent amount of science), and N.L.O. would hardly be worth anything to you anyway considering my cultural influence in the area.
If you want territory that has actual economic worth, then I suggest you either take your bloodlust to TT or I could gift you some of timmy's cities, assuming that I can manage to take a few. Perhaps something like every city I take after the second, I don't know. They would be distant, but I've scouted most of his land by this point, and it's almost all universally fantastic. If that strikes your fancy, then I'm willing to do the heavy lifting, suffer the war weariness, etc., but it would go a lot more quickly if you contributed some of those units you mentioned having available to gift in your reply. I'm open to suggestions on this front.
If you want land because a domination victory appeals to you, then again TT is your best target. He has a lot of empty land for the taking, and beyond him lies Sleeping Moogle, who has managed to stunt his own growth to an extent that inspires both awe and fear. If you attack me, I'll make you fight for every damn inch, and after I'm dead you're left with a border with the #2 power in the game, and the #3 civ beyond him.
If the reason for war is security, then I'm prepared to offer you a long-term, or even game-long NAP if that's what you want. We could also work a MPP in there as well, should you so desire. The opportunity to have a perpetually free flank on a map where you will likely only ever have two fronts is a massive advantage. I'd certainly be willing to continue trading with you as well.
If you just want more space, regardless of quality, well that's kind of a stupid goal, so I'm hoping that's not the issue. You already have a lot of land, likely more so than any other civ, and a dominant position. Starting wars for little reason is a great way to threaten your own lead.
Essentially, I urge you in the strongest possible terms to reconsider your thinking here. To reiterate: I am about to fight your most dangerous rival, I don't have very much or very strong land to even give up to you, I still owe you a great person and am sending missionaries, and I seem to be your only genuine friend in the game who wasn't browbeat into the position. I'm willing to offer you perpetual security for your southern border, and military defense if you'll do the same for me. I'll even give you some of timmy's land, although again I'll probably need help on that front. What I won't do is simply hand over my cities without a fight.
Finally, a warning: if you do decide to fight with me, then so be it. I will not surrender, and it will be war to the death. I'm emotionally invested enough in my civ that I refuse to live on as the shattered remnants of my already lamentable empire, but not so attached that I would refuse to whip my cities into the dirt to make you suffer for every tile.
I await your reply. I'll hold on to the save until about 5PM EST tomorrow. If you have a particular offer you wish to make, I'm interested. If I receive no response, then I'll take it that you wish to have it out, and I shall move my troops accordingly.
Cordially,
-Bobchillingworth
Sandover Wrote:Dear Bob,
I cannot properly explain why TT would make such an offer. It's true that it's bound to hurt him more than it helps. Being in a position to benefit from it, however, I didn't exactly put a lot of work into trying to talk him out of it. Maybe he just want to have an effect on the game while he's still strong enough to affect the outcome? Either way my economy can easily handle that amount of units and it's not like I'm expecting all of them to live eternally.
If I decide to take TT's land I can do so at the blink of an eye any time I want. Why should I be in such a hurry?
Losing the Great Person and Missionaries is regretable, but sometimes one must sacrifice things in order to earn something else.
Bizarre opportunism? Yes, I agree. I do in fact pride myself as an opportunist.
I'm not certain whether our relations can be maintained or not at this point. At one stage of reading your response it appears not, but I'm going to act on the assumption that things can be salvaged. If my assumption is incorrect please do me the favour of letting me know so we can fight this out man to man.
Let it be clear that I do not expect you to give up part of your core. It would be completely ridiculous to even suggest such a thing. What I'm looking to acquire is mainly some extra security, and that's a purpose even the most dreadful sites can fullfil. No, I'm not looking for a NAP. I hate NAPs. If you insist on one as part of an agreement (if we manage to reach one) I will comply, but that's as far as I go. Security is gained through military, territory and communication as far as I'm concerned. Just as your communicating with me kept you clear of an unexpected invasion.
When I say I'm looking for some extra security I'm particularily interested in making sure Chillingworth isn't vulnerable to attack. The city is very important to me, more so than my capital in fact, and the risk of losing it in the early stage of a potential conflict pains me greatly. Acquiring the city of NLO would go a long way in protecting this vital commercial center, as you can probably understand. As for your saying that NLO would hardly be worth anything to me, I strongly disagree. Farming the river tiles currently under my cultural control and adding windmills to the hills would definitly make the city worthwhile.
I understand NLO serves a similar defensive role for the Universal Union as it would under Egyptian control. I am therefore willing to demilitarize the zone that lies between NLO and Black Mesa if I were to acquire the city peacefully. This agreement would hold even in case of future conflict and secure that if either of those cities are to ever be invaded it will have to be from the east. The city of Xen lies as such that it does not threaten my nation, at least not in a way that has me worried, and neither does that port city of yours as my new settlement Weird River is the one to take a potential fall in that area. However, I'd like to add the unsettled area to the table, if I may.
So to sum things up I'm very eager to acquire NLO. I'll pay for it by troops that's of better quality than your own, and I'd also like to buy the unsettled area as part of the deal. Colonies are of no interest to me what-so-ever, as they'd be too hard to defend. I'm sure you can make good enough use of some extra troops in your incoming campaign to justify trading me some territory. I'm open to discuss the number and composition, and would like to maintain our working relationship as I'll once again be turning my attention east if we can come to an agreement.
It would be a huge loss of face for me if I were to walk away from this without having gained at least something minor, and as such that's out of the question. With that in mind I hope you will at least consider my offer as I believe it's one that's acceptable despite your reluctancy to let go of the Union's territory.
Regards,
Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt
Bob Wrote:Hello,
It seems to me that if I go haul off and attack timmy now, I'm screwing over your main opponent for you, and getting no guarantee that you won't pull this crap again on me.
If we fight, I have no illusions that I can hold on to N.L.O. myself, or even necessarily my empire, but I'm sure that I can wound you enough to dramatically reduce your chances of winning the game.
I also don't think that I have much a chance to win the game for myself regardless of what I do.
So if I'm going to ruin someone's day, make it worth my while that it won't be you. I want to know how many troops I'm getting, when, and of what sort. The more I get, the more hurt I'll be able to place on timmy, so it's to your advantage. I'm also not particularly inclined to give you a great person anymore. And like I said above, your not placing troops directly outside of N.L.O is cold comfort when you're able to backstab me anywhere else on our long border at any time.
Depending on what specifics you offer, I'm willing to bargain & be open to future trade relations, but it will be very difficult to trust a self-professed "opportunist" again. I'm sure you understand.
Finally, I again bring up my offer of the unreasonably long NAP in exchange for retaining my territorial sanctity. I'm a man of my world, and won't betray you as long as you abide by the same terms. If you want observers in each other's land to make sure that we keep minimal garrisons across our border, then I'll agree to that. I'll also mention that my attack on timmy was not just going to involve me- scooter and Sleeping Moogle were agreed to participate. If all you want really is security, then accepting an NAP and letting me bash your enemies in exchange for giving up your ambitions for my territory and however many troops you can spare for the war effort sounds to me like an awfully solid deal. It's not like you'd go away empty-handed, having secured a free border and getting an opponent (or two, if scooter gets bloodied) getting potentially taken down several pegs.
-Bobchillingworth
<resume chat>
12:23 PM*
scooter: ok, yeah i'm reading it now
12:26 PM*
i guess i have 2 thoughts...
12:27 PM*
1. bob accepting the NLO for troops deal is probably okay for him...
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2. cant blame bob that much for being kind of ticked... if sleepingmoogle did this to me, i'd be pretty mad... granted i would know its a war i could win given our circumstances, but you get my point i think
12:30 PM*
Sandover:: I guess I can understand it to some extent but it's not how I'd react
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scooter: how would you react?
12:31 PM*
Sandover:: with reason rather than emotionally
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it's not like I've done him any dmg yet
12:32 PM*
either way, I can't have him pissed at me
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scooter: i guess here's his thinking - he viewed your civ as a friend to his civ in this game
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Sandover:: if one neighbour is being unreasonable then that's the neighbour that has to die
12:33 PM*
scooter: same as i view my civ as a friend to sleepingmooogles civ... because of mutual cooperations
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however both of us have pretty much zero relationship with timmy... he's been a virtual non-entity in the diplomatic area
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so finding out that you were planning a surprise attack on him when he viewed you as fairly friendly towards him puts him in a bad mood to start
12:34 PM*
second, to him its an illogical move. he figures TT is a much better target than himself... so he views it not only as a backstab, but illogical
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i dont really have too much of an opinion on that area, but thats the root of his reaction
12:35 PM*
Sandover:: well he obviously thought more highly of our relations then I did
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scooter: probably
12:36 PM*
one more opinion i share with him - is that we're doing you a favor by investing so much resources in taking down timmy
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i actaully wrote in my thread recently that it seemed like you were mildly underestimating how good of a position timmy is in... his land is the best by a good bit
12:37 PM*
he's leading in food and MFG... he'll be leading in GNP within 15-20 turns most likely if he wasnt slowed by war
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he's got a LOT of things going for him
12:38 PM*
Sandover:: why is everybody trying to make it sound like I'm bound to win the game as long as timmy lose a few cities?
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scooter: i wouldnt go that far
12:39 PM*
Sandover:: you're attacking him to make personal gains, all of you are
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scooter: but i think if he DOESNT lose any cities, he's the heavy favorite in this game
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oh definitely, not denying that at all
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i'm just saying everyone moves up a rung in this one
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Sandover:: the fact that it's also beneficial to me is just a coincidence
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scooter: you are the leader right now
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but i honestly believe it wont be long before timmy takes that lead... i've seen his land, its fantastic
12:40 PM*
huge cities running lots of cottages all over
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Sandover:: honestly I had expected him to be ahead already
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scooter: once he has markets and courthouses everywhere he will
12:41 PM*
Sandover:: point is
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I need to deal with bob somehow
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scooter: what do you view as your options?
12:42 PM*
Sandover:: I'm not backing off with less than I had before this all started
12:43 PM*
and if he's going to be emotionally upset with me for the rest of the game then that's a lot less even if I get a few minor pieces of land
12:44 PM*
but I don't know if this is fixable somehow
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when people gets upset with me irl I usually just tell them to fuck off, so I'm feeling kinda lost here
12:45 PM*
scooter: haha
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honestly i'm not real sure waht the solution is either
12:46 PM*
i'll put it this way, if you want a southern neighbor who doesnt dislike you (though he prob can do nothing about it), you'll have to make it worth is while probabl
12:47 PM*
Sandover:: right, so for starters I need to let him have his land
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scooter: i think anythign involving him giving up cities is probably a non-starter
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Sandover:: I guess
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scooter: just cant see him doing that willingly
12:49 PM*
really - all i can see him jumping at is he gets to keep his cities and you guy sign a somewhat longterm nap. not game-long obviously, but enough for him to do whatever he wishes on the timmy front
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Sandover:: which makes me look like a chicken unless I ask for something else
12:50 PM*
scooter: not totally sure i agree. you havent even declared war yet
12:51 PM*
Sandover:: he offered me some of timmy's land, but there's nothing stopping you or bob to take it away from me later if you feel like it
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it does, if I withdraw without having gotten at least something
12:52 PM*
scooter: a NAP wouldnt be all that bad for you really. i mean i hate them too, but you get a southern NAP, redirect that army to TT. he folds like a deck of cards, and suddenly you have by far the most land out of anyone
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and your new eastern neighbor is... surprise... the 2nd weakest player in the game right now
12:53 PM*
Sandover:: that's not the point
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I already had a secure southern border
12:54 PM*
if I get a nap all i have is a secure border and a pissed neighbour
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scooter: i think you really have two routes that you have to choose between, and getting both is not all that possible...
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1. you have a pissed off neighbor but you get something good out of the peace deal
12:55 PM*
2. you dont really gain anything, but bob chills out (bad pun, i know)
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well 3 options
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3. war
12:56 PM*
Sandover:: I don't like the first two
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scooter: thats whats rough about your position
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and i and bob dont like the 3rd one...
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Sandover:: I get that
12:57 PM*
scooter: you sort of have to decide what the "least bad" option for you is
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Sandover:: well
12:58 PM*
the only reason I haven't already told bob we're at war is I don't want to screw with your attack on timmy
12:59 PM*
scooter: yeah... you've told me before you were thinking about attacking bob, but it seemed like that was quite a ways off... meaning after a war with timmy. i really didnt care what you did as long as it didnt kill my plans
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Sandover:: it would've been at least 15 turns from now
1:00 PM*
scooter: probably a bit sooner than i expected, but mostly he just sniffed it out (somewhat accdientally) way early
1:01 PM*
Sandover:: aight
1:04 PM*
brb
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![[Image: woohoo.gif]](http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/woohoo.gif)
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