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T69 is boring--all Monuments and Granaries, Augsburg was founded, nothing special.
Most of the stuff I covered in the last post still stands--the main thing I didn't cover was where I want my next cities to be (assuming I can afford new cities, which you are asserting I can). The three big cities for getting space are Dot 4, Dot 6, and the dyes city by Nuremburg (the city 1E of the dyes, which has horses as well as the dyes and Nuremburg's corn). After those, I don't see any land-grabbing cities which I can reasonably get--maybe something by Dot 4, if johns expands in a different direction. Other than that, I have the four filler cities of course, and then I probably have to war to expand.
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T70, still not much unexpected--we captured Carib and got 50 gold, enough to power through Priesthood. I got a bunch of pictures in this roundup, including diplo screens for everyone (but Elum/mackoti obviously)--johns and Adrien both have 6 cities, tied for the most other than us. It also says who has Writing, since World Maps show up for some, but not others. I'll answer any questions as always; I just don't feel an urge to complete an actual report 
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Looking good. I question the monument builds in the two NE cities. What do you need immediately in the second ring that is worth more than a faster granary? It's hard to tell without resource bubbles on but I don't see resources at first glance. Another reason not to hurry with the monument is we do have a religion and may get a passive spread. Failing that, we are not far from Monotheism and can build missionaries fairly soon, if we need to go that route. This is not an ironclad way to play it, just something for you to consider.
Thanks for intel about opponents and city count. This is something to keep an eye on every so often. Check F4 techs to see how much gold opponents have in the bank and the trade screen for gold savings rate. This is possible after someone discovers Currency. It is fairly certain that we will not be first to Currency, so keeping an eye on this is a way to gauge how your opponents are doing by seeing who gets there first.
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T71, more boring stuff. I don't know how much new stuff needs to happen before I actually feel the urge to write a report--the biggest news this turn was that Dreylin completed Oracle. I also put my resource icons on, since someone requested them 
So as a general rule, I should be building Granaries before Monuments in most cities? Now that I think about it, Nuremburg really doesn't need to pop borders for actual tiles (most of the tiles are peaks, coasts I can't lighthouse, and tiles Carib will give me), just for territory control and visibility. Carib is a more-disputed case, since there's corn in the fat cross, but I switched it to a Granary as well (and I still have a turn before it comes out of revolt). How can I tell the middle ground? For example, I like the Monument in Augsberg since it really wants the pigs, and obviously a spot like Dot 4 needs the Monument since it doesn't have any first-ring food.
Speaking of Dot 4, that leads to the two questions I don't believe you've really commented on: city placement and tech path. Let's start with city placement, which is really a two-part question. First of all, when can I afford to settle more cities? I know you've said that I should keep making cities, even though my economy is teetering (and now that I have a bunch of cottages built, with more on the way, I should be fine), but how many can I ultimately afford? I know I'm going to build (and probably whip) a settler out of Rillanon after the Granary finishes, but where else can I afford to build a settler? For example, Aachen seems like it would be the best place to build settlers (mainly since it can't build anything else other than more military and a Barracks), but it's currently stuck at size 3 since it needs to work the gold to keep my economy going. Maybe Bas-Tyra after its Granary finishes? That's probably the best place. Second, where do those cities go? Right now I'm undecided between 3 spots: Dot 4, Dot 6, and the spot 1E of the dyes by Nuremburg, and each site has its strengths and weaknesses. The dyes spot is a great city and can get started quickly (by borrowing Nuremburg's corn), but it claims the least territory. Dot 4 is probably the city with the best potential (food, gold and copper), but none of that is first ring. Dot 6 is an important spot to claim to cut off Adrien, but it's the farthest away from my territory. Don't forget about any of the filler spots either, especially Moai if you think I need the extra happiness. Right now I'm leaning towards the dyes spot for my next settler (especially since it's almost certainly coming out of Rillanon), but that isn't set in stone yet.
My second question is tech path, which boils down to Currency or CoL first. A couple turns ago path there was a Currency-only path that ignored Priesthood, but that's obviously off the table. The question is whether the benefits of CoL (mainly the cheap UB, as well as coming a tech sooner and possibly founding Confucianism) makes up for delaying Currency and losing some arrow bonus from Currency to CoL. My current thoughts are to go (Priesthood->)Writing->Math->Currency->CoL--is that a good line? Also, one thing I haven't really thought about is whether Alphabet or Math is better? Math is obviously better in BTS (especially since Tech Trading is never on anymore), but I don't know how much to value Open Borders (and Spies, I guess ) over the chopping improvements (and Aquaducts/Hanging Gardens, but those require Masonry). Any thoughts?
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(January 1st, 2015, 23:14)Cheater Hater Wrote: T71, more boring stuff. I don't know how much new stuff needs to happen before I actually feel the urge to write a report--the biggest news this turn was that Dreylin completed Oracle. I also put my resource icons on, since someone requested them
Thanks for the resource icons, that helps see where your important stuff is and makes it easy on folks who aren't logging in regularly. It's easier to look at pics in thread than going over to dropbox, but I can manage if this is how you prefer to post. :P
You finish Priesthood at EoT. What was your thinking going for PH? Early CoL? Or for a shot at the Oracle. As you mentioned, Oracle is gone now, so unless you plan on going for CoL I don't see utility in finishing immediately. Unless you're planning on building temples, in which case we should talk that over. You mention tech path later in your post, so I'll just say here that you have a lot of forests and Math is always a good target on the way to Currency. You have a surplus of hammers, as is fairly common with an IMP start. For 105h, you can build both settler and axe escort, so you're well ahead of non-IMP in expansion. Faster cities means earlier cottages, so long as you have the workforce to immediately improve cities. You have 9 workers for 8 cities, which isn't bad, but you are chewing up territory faster right now than you are able to improve it, so I'd get a few more workers out. Ideally, you'd want to have a worker or preferably two available to start immediately improving a new city, if you can manage this. Now is probably a good time to build more workers as your cities are somewhat happy constrained and your economy is starting to feel the crunch from expansion. Workers and settlers cost you the same amount, so given this invest now in workers while you don't want to grow and before you get to Math. Once you get to Math, your increased workforce can chop out a new wave of settlers if you feel you can afford the expansion at that point.
(January 1st, 2015, 23:14)Cheater Hater Wrote: So as a general rule, I should be building Granaries before Monuments in most cities? Now that I think about it, Nuremberg really doesn't need to pop borders for actual tiles (most of the tiles are peaks, coasts I can't lighthouse, and tiles Carib will give me), just for territory control and visibility. Carib is a more-disputed case, since there's corn in the fat cross, but I switched it to a Granary as well (and I still have a turn before it comes out of revolt). How can I tell the middle ground? For example, I like the Monument in Augsberg since it really wants the pigs, and obviously a spot like Dot 4 needs the Monument since it doesn't have any first-ring food.
This is on a case-by-case basis. I did not see the second ring corn in the new barb city. You'll need to run some numbers to see which is actually better, granary or monument. My guess since you do not have a surplus of worker labor is that granary first is better. Improve the sheep, borrow the cow from Nuremberg perhaps, then a 20h chop/1 pop whip for the granary. Or, just chop the monument and build the granary as culture slowly expands borders in 10t. You'll have to count on hands and toes to see what looks better. Augsburg should finish the monument for the pigs, and because this looks to be an area where you'll want to monitor your opponent.
(January 1st, 2015, 23:14)Cheater Hater Wrote: Speaking of Dot 4, that leads to the two questions I don't believe you've really commented on: city placement and tech path. Let's start with city placement, which is really a two-part question. First of all, when can I afford to settle more cities? I know you've said that I should keep making cities, even though my economy is teetering (and now that I have a bunch of cottages built, with more on the way, I should be fine), but how many can I ultimately afford? I know I'm going to build (and probably whip) a settler out of Rillanon after the Granary finishes, but where else can I afford to build a settler? For example, Aachen seems like it would be the best place to build settlers (mainly since it can't build anything else other than more military and a Barracks), but it's currently stuck at size 3 since it needs to work the gold to keep my economy going. Maybe Bas-Tyra after its Granary finishes? That's probably the best place. Second, where do those cities go? Right now I'm undecided between 3 spots: Dot 4, Dot 6, and the spot 1E of the dyes by Nuremberg, and each site has its strengths and weaknesses. The dyes spot is a great city and can get started quickly (by borrowing Nuremberg's corn), but it claims the least territory. Dot 4 is probably the city with the best potential (food, gold and copper), but none of that is first ring. Dot 6 is an important spot to claim to cut off Adrien, but it's the farthest away from my territory. Don't forget about any of the filler spots either, especially Moai if you think I need the extra happiness. Right now I'm leaning towards the dyes spot for my next settler (especially since it's almost certainly coming out of Rillanon), but that isn't set in stone yet.
Adrien seems to expanding slowly, you may be able to get away with throwing down a favorable border city further west than dot 4 and just back-filling later. However, moving these cities makes your other city placements pretty awkward and basically eliminates settling on plains hills. Dot 6 can move 1E and pick up a second seafood and you could then settle an additional city SE of the crabs, but this could be an antagonistic settlement. Alternatively, you could move 4 SW for a very defensible settlement but there's a good chance Rome would then settle on dyes and take the crab first ring. Without better visibility it's just hard to say right now. 1E of dyes by Nuremberg could be ok, finish scouting and see what you uncover. Whosit's warrior seems to be saying "this is mine", so expect some resistance pushing much further in this direction. I'd estimate the horse is 5 tiles W of his capital. It is 8 tiles E from yours.
I'd be fairly reluctant to whip your capital. You want it to stagnate at the happy cap and work as many cottages as possible to get them developed for Bureaucracy. You can swap the pigs to Bas-Tyra and build foodhammer units there. Spare the whip on the capital is generally a decent strategy once you've expanded out to a few cities. Certainly you have enough other options to build what you need elsewhere. Also, micro tip: Prioritize working cottages in the capital's BFC. I made a note with a signpost in game about a tile swap giving preference for working a shared cottage between capital and #2 at the expense of a cottage in city #2. And, while I'm on micro, you should emphasize hammers when building granaries so that you can as closely as possible complete the granary soonest while not having the foodbox more than half full. For example, currently in Bas-Tyra (city #2):
I recommend this instead:
You can swap the pigs from the capital to get closer to 14/28 on the turn the granary finishes, that should be possible but I didn't look into it. With your original configuration, you'll complete the granary in 5t with 17 food in the box. Any food in the box after 14/28 when the granary finishes won't help you add food into the box when the city grows. In this case, when you grow to size 2 you would only add 11 food from the granary (28-17=11) rather than the full 14 (28-14=14) if you have 14 food in the box. So you're wasting 3 food and delaying growth at size 2 because you need to fill the box further than if you had maximized this by finishing the granary at 14/28. I'm not the best at explaining this but looking at a micro spreadsheet may help you. If you'd like to look at what I used for PB18, I don't see any harm with that, I stopped using it around T145 or so and there's nothing spoilery at this point.
(January 1st, 2015, 23:14)Cheater Hater Wrote: My second question is tech path, which boils down to Currency or CoL first. A couple turns ago path there was a Currency-only path that ignored Priesthood, but that's obviously off the table. The question is whether the benefits of CoL (mainly the cheap UB, as well as coming a tech sooner and possibly founding Confucianism) makes up for delaying Currency and losing some arrow bonus from Currency to CoL. My current thoughts are to go (Priesthood->)Writing->Math->Currency->CoL--is that a good line? Also, one thing I haven't really thought about is whether Alphabet or Math is better? Math is obviously better in BTS (especially since Tech Trading is never on anymore), but I don't know how much to value Open Borders (and Spies, I guess ) over the chopping improvements (and Aquaducts/Hanging Gardens, but those require Masonry). Any thoughts?
At current breakeven rate (-2g, which is likely to get worse before it gets better), you need 33 turns to get CoL! This number will also decrease over this lengthy time as more cottages come online and happy cap increases, but this is FOREVER. Actually, Writing --> Math isn't any better, but you need to get to Currency. After finishing PH, you need 72b (60% arrow bonus!) for Writing, then 299b for Math. Compare this to 418b for CoL. Honestly, it isn't a massive difference in cost between the two, but Currency gives another arrow bonus (20% discount) on CoL, which you aren't racing to for the religion and actually probably don't want to get because it creates competition for spreading your preferred Hindu religion. The true difference is in the utility of researching Writing and being able to build a library with some of your spare hammers and getting started on a GS and then having better chops at Math. These two things to me are better than getting your super Rathauses online sooner, and you want ALL of the following ASAP: good chops (Math), ability to build wealth with surplus hammers (Currency), Rathauses (CoL). I think going Writing--> Math--> Currency--> CoL gets you there the soonest.
One thing to consider is whether you think you can get your opponents to open borders with you. As the leader in city count, if I were your opponent I may be reluctant to help bail out your economy by opening borders with you, knowing that you are IMP and have likely overextended somewhat. However, many players just look at it as "hey, it's better for me than not having the routes!" and click yes without thinking it completely through. And you get an additional 20% discount on Currency (arrow bonus). I was the first civ in my neighborhood to research Alphabet in PB18 and I never regretted all of that trade income. Just something to think about.
January 2nd, 2015, 15:30
(This post was last modified: January 2nd, 2015, 15:39 by Cheater Hater.)
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Reports: It's not so much that I prefer to post this way, it's just that I don't really like cluttering the thread if I don't have that much to add--that was double true for these past two updates since I did a bunch of info dumps. If you prefer it that I post the pictures in the thread (even if I don't have that much to add), it's the least I can do, especially since you have such detailed followups 
Priesthood: No, I'm not planning on building Temples (except maybe in the capital)--Priesthood is almost entirely for the arrow bonuses at both Writing and CoL, as well as the flexibility of possibly going CoL before Currency. I think the arrow bonuses pay for Priesthood almost entirely--let's do some math for how many beakers (ignoring known tech bonuses, since they're small right now and hard to calculate):
So, using that rough math, we're saving about 5 beakers--wow, that's really miniscule
Still, Temples aren't nothing, and this analysis is completely ignoring unlocking Monarchy (which we'll obviously want to research eventually), so since we'll want Priesthood eventually, we might as well research it now when it's basically free, with the only cost being a slight delay on Currency (which isn't nothing, admittedly). I'll admit, I decided this tech path intuitively, and I'm glad to see the math works out
Granaries/Monuments: One thing that comes out of this is that I don't know how much I should be chopping--I haven't been doing it that much since I've been prioritizing my worker turns towards improving resources and building cottages, and haven't prioritized the granaries as much as I should have. Now that we're this late in the process, should I be saving the majority of my forests until I get Math?
City Placement: If you think we can guard the western dyes city, I really like that, along with moving Dot 6 so it gets both seafood. Of course, the problem with those cities is guarding them--they're really far away, since I have to circle around the lake to get to them. The peaks also funnel all the traffic through that city, so I feel like it has to be well-defended. Maybe I could settle the new Dot 6 first, then see if Adrien tries to settle the dyes city.
I'm not sure what Whosit is doing by Nuremburg--he actually had his warrior on the hill for a while (which meant I had to guard my worker, just in case--even though I passed taking one of Whosit's workers earlier, so I hope our relations can remain peaceful), and just moved it down last turn (allowing my warrior to finally scout in that direction). I don't know how much more settling I want to do in that direction, but there's obviously more scouting to do.
Micro: *sigh*
Do I really have to say more? The weird thing with micro isn't necessarily that it takes time--if you follow my login times you can see I stay in the game for a while as is--it's that there's often a clear best option given the circumstances (especially early game), but there are severe diminishing returns getting there. Let's start by taking a look at the micro at Bas-Tyra, since that's what you focused on: - The tile swap you did (switching which cottage I worked) I'm not sure is 100% right--the reason I was working the cottage not shared with the capital is that it was 3 turns closer to growing than the cottage that just finished. I don't know which ends up being better (especially since I'd grow onto that tile next, and probably swap to it after the granary finishes even), and to do so, I'd probably need to calculate all the way to Civil Service! That's the kind of time sink I was mentioning
- I was working the lumbermill at Bas-Tyra up until this turn--the only reason I switched to working a cottage in the first place was that I needed my raw commerce to be even so I could bump the slider down to 50% without losing a commerce due to rounding! Next turn while I save up at Writing, I was planning to switch back to the lumbermill anyway since it has a higher raw yield, and completing the granary is important. I don't think there's another way to not waste a commerce here and not finish Priesthood--any thoughts?
Edit: I did decide to go back to 0% for a turn, then I can go 100% next turn and avoid wasting the beaker--we don't need Priesthood right this moment, and working the Lumbermill saves a turn overall on the granary, even if I switch back right away.
- How important is it to try to get exactly half-filled food when the granary completes? I get that it's better (since it doesn't waste food and gets as close to growth as possible), but it's not worth working tiles with less yield overall (or non-cottages), right?
See, that's all the stuff I'm thinking about when I try to do my micro--should I be putting my detailed micro ideas in my reports? If so, it's going to make me less likely to do them :/
Tech Path: Are you including the cost of Writing only in the Currency path? Writing is required for CoL, so you're really comparing Math->Currency verus CoL by itself. Still, I had been leaning towards Writing->Math->Currency->CoL, so it's good to receive reassurance of that
Also, are you considering researching both Alphabet and Math before Currency? I don't think I ever considered that; the arrow bonus isn't worth the cost of the tech, and as you said, it's worth basically nothing if I can't get Open Borders (though I'd think I'd be more likely to get them here--the green player probably hasn't come anywhere close to thinking this stuff through, especially if they aren't considering Alphabet (since Math is the default choice) and is more likely to just hit accept).
Edit: Looking through the map, how profitable is pillaging tile improvements? I mean, some are obvious (like the cottage I already started pillaging this turn, or the camp that is meaningless), but the stuff that might be useful (most notably the mine by Nuremburg) doesn't seem quite as important to pillage, especially if no one else is around. Also, how much of a cost is delaying my scouting? For example, I assume I'll double-back for the NE windmill, so I could get it then.
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This is weird--I'm supposed to do more reports, but I just put out a ton of text on my plans and stuff. I'll do the in-between--I'll post the folder of pictures for T72 here, but pull out some of the important ones without much comment:
The most important thing is that johns has another Settler--no clue where it's going though. Hopefully the chop means it's not going on the hill, and thus it'll be easy to take soon.
I was able to bump the slider down to 40%, since my commerce is divisible by 5--that still completes Priesthood, but is less committing.
Bunch more pictures in the folder including graphs, scouting, diplo screens showing Whosit has Writing now, the works.
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T73's going quickly--I need to get this post up now!
Not much new here--the Settler's going to the dyes spot I think (depending on what Whosit does; he has an Axe in the area now and could be planning a settlement), but unfortunately won't be completed in 4 turns most likely--it's getting 25 food-hammers a turn exactly, but Bas-Tyra needs to steal the pigs next turn (not this turn, since I either not work the hamlet for a turn or delay the granary, neither of which seems like a good option).
I also have a couple of interesting build decisions. The one I'm least sure about is Prague--I was debating between a Worker and a Barracks. I decided to let it grow first, then build the Worker, but it's possible that I should whip the Worker now instead. I'm also not sure if I should whip the Workboat in Vienna soon either--I'm not whipping this turn since I'm working the lake for the commerce, but I could whip next turn (but then I don't know what I'd overflow into).
I'm still surprised at how well I'm doing in everything--even the GNP isn't that bad, since if I bump the slider up even to just 50% I'm number 1 in that too (though that's mainly a function of the ridiculous 60% arrow bonus, but still )
More stuff in the folder--I found a hamlet to start pillaging next turn! I'm also delicately balancing my espionage points--johns keeps putting points into me so I have to divert a bunch of points to maintain my graphs, but I still want to get Grimace's new graphs as well (to say nothing of Dreylin, who's put points into me already). Hopefully we'll get another turn today
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Just a folder dump today for T74, since I'm watching AGDQ and getting distracted--we might get a turn rolled tonight though (since johns double-played, and he's generally the constraint), and if we do, I'll probably get a report from that
January 5th, 2015, 18:18
(This post was last modified: January 5th, 2015, 18:32 by Cheater Hater.)
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T75 Report:
Lots of military stuff going on this turn--the minor things are the barbs in the east and west, which should be easily handled (though the axe in the east did delay the cow by a turn unfortunately, but in exchange I finished the mine this turn). The one that's more likely to be a problem is johns moving up in the south--he actually settled the city last turn (and hasn't moved this turn), and has an Impi in it, with an Axe coming in later this turn. This wouldn't be concerning by itself, but johns's power continues to grow, and I have to divide my attention between 3 fronts, two of which could be attacked at once if johns attacks. Thankfully the north is really safe (an axe and spear, with more Barracks-boosted troops available soon), and the south is fine--I moved a new axe SW to take care of the wandering barb (since Bas-Tyra only has a warrior in it  ) which can guard Vienna shortly, and Bas-Tyra is building a Spear for Vienna as well. When you combine that with my super-axes which are only weak to chariots or highly-promoted axes, I should be fine for the time being. More importantly, johns continues to place cities not on hills (I guess the city he did found is technically better since it could get my lake fish and has first ring food, but putting it 1S is much safer in my opinion), so I should be good whenever I want to counter-attack (especially considering his copper city is next door, and also not on a hill). Still, there's no reason to attack before Currency, or even before CoL, right? I still have plenty of cities to found, before taking any of johns's empire.
This is what my stats look like when I go 100% research on Writing--that 60% bonus (+~10% known tech bonus) is a wonderful thing
Rest of the pictures are in the folder as always
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