Clan 9 From Outer Space

[Commodore]

Missing the initial context, but...arguing with idiots online is like competing in the Special Olympics, right?

[Old Harry]

I think, honestly, your transgression is about on the same level as him complaining about the Clans 'brokenness' all over the place. Extremely unlikely to actually affect the game - but technically against the rules. I wish you hadn't called him on that, but it's too late now.

Couldn't disagree more - one is " you didn't get that wonder" which has zero diplomatic effect, the other is "Hey everyone - the leader is a runaway who needs a dogpile" which is nothing but diplo. If North had stopped doing it when it was pointed out to him I'd have some sympathy, as it's his first game, but he hasn't stopped whining about that and everything else ever since.

TBH I really don't understand why Q is still bothering with this game... (Well perhaps the scoreboard has something to do with it .)

[Mardoc]

Idk, obviously I'm biased. But I didn't think that sort of a thing was against the rules (it's the sorta thing I've seen everywhere, and probably even less than some discussions I've had about other games - such as with BGN in PB18) and I thought that sort of email banter was okay. But if I've crossed a line, well, I'll apologize.

Oh, how to put it. Against the letter of the rules, but in line with their spirit.

My concern is more for tactics and appearances than for the substance. Particularly when you threatened to use your EitB subforum mod powers, I think that would have worked better if there was nothing at all he could point to on your end, important or exaggerated.

-----

Maybe I'm biased by 'would anyone take anything Northstar says seriously?' I admit I didn't read his relevant posts, just skimmed them.

[HidingKneel]

Lurkers, do you think what Dreylin and I did was too far? Should we stop?

I agree with Mardoc, but I wouldn't draw that conclusion. It's arguably some kind of violation but in a friendly game no one should care about something so minor. I think the point that Mardoc was making is that taking Northstar to task earlier for his complaints about the Clan was veering away from "friendly game" territory, so it's something to be avoided (the real objection to Northstar's complaints is that they're annoying, not that they're breaking the rules of the game).

[Mardoc]

Hmm, yeah, that's a good way to put it. Once it became clear that this wasn't going to be a friendly game, that you were going to have to actually use the rules as written - then you can't use the spirit of the rules anymore, you've got to go by their letter. And that applies even to things that aren't hurting anyone, like your banter.

It looks like that's basically irrelevant now, though, since Old Lion is taking over. I'm pretty sure he'll be a friendly opponent.

[Qgqqqqq]

Bothering with this game because it's won or because the participants/drama level is so high?

For the latter, only Northstar is really a problem. Kragroth and Dreylin are both courteous, play their turns a bit faster than the average player, and haven't really caused problems. Dreylin especially I get on very well with (the cause of this drama :/) and apart from some stuff at the start, I haven't had any problem with Kragroth in this game.

As for the former...well, if I'm honest, that's probably why I'm so enjoying this game so much. I haven't had a game where I've been in the lead, or even the top half, besides duels, ever before. And yeah, it's fun. I enjoy the optimization, I enjoy being able to micro towards wonders and bend everything towards trying to win them, I enjoy weighing up different paths and seeing which will put me into a better position, even looking back at earlier decisions and which ones I regret or were wrong and which ones were not. I enjoy making a hundred decisions each turn and knowing that half of them could be made differently in a way neither better or worse but which would subtly steer me towards a different path/approach for my civ. I enjoy looking at my civ and tracking it's progress - watching as cities finish warrens and start producing, when they soar in growth and outpace improvements.

I suppose all of that isn't just about winning, it's more related to doing well in a map this size at this point in the game. Unlike most players here, my favorite time in FFH/BTS isn't the early game, when you've got 1-5 cities, but more into the mid-game, when you've 10-20, and options are opening up but you're not at the stage where militarism is the optimal output. About the stage, actually, that I died at in PB18, but after where we're at in EitB37.

Anyway, I haven't really had a game like that until now. And I intend to enjoy it for all it's worth.

[Qgqqqqq]

Xposted with a ton.

[Qgqqqqq]

My concern is more for tactics and appearances than for the substance. Particularly when you threatened to use your EitB subforum mod powers, I think that would have worked better if there was nothing at all he could point to on your end, important or exaggerated.

-----

Maybe I'm biased by 'would anyone take anything Northstar says seriously?' I admit I didn't read his relevant posts, just skimmed them.

When I threatened to use them by saying that I'd just spoiler/delete anything he posted there? I agree that that was a bit harsh, but it wasn't related to this game at all (that was just about me saying I was utterly sick of his shit, and given that, tbh, the EitB subforum is used as a feedback/discussion forum for me to look at, I didn't want his presence - and endless insults/allegations - there. If he'd posted, though, I'm not sure if I would've done anything about it...I am rather overeager for feedback).

Lurkers, do you think what Dreylin and I did was too far? Should we stop?

I agree with Mardoc, but I wouldn't draw that conclusion. It's arguably some kind of violation but in a friendly game no one should care about something so minor. I think the point that Mardoc was making is that taking Northstar to task earlier for his complaints about the Clan was veering away from "friendly game" territory, so it's something to be avoided (the real objection to Northstar's complaints is that they're annoying, not that they're breaking the rules of the game).

Hmm, yeah, that's a good way to put it. Once it became clear that this wasn't going to be a friendly game, that you were going to have to actually use the rules as written - then you can't use the spirit of the rules anymore, you've got to go by their letter. And that applies even to things that aren't hurting anyone, like your banter.

It looks like that's basically irrelevant now, though, since Old Lion is taking over. I'm pretty sure he'll be a friendly opponent.

I get what you're saying here, but I disagree that my pulling Northstar up on his stunts stopped this being a "friendly" game. A lot of the vitriol poured into the mix about then might qualify, but as Old Harry said earlier, that was pretty clearly illicit diplomacy whether intended or unintended, and there's no way I could let it slide - I actually did let a bunch of comments on the edge past muster (his comments in the '41 setup thread, for instance, as well as a few in the tech thread), but when he got so blatant with it I just couldn't let it stand. I mean, sure, they were annoying - along with most of his posts - but IMO they were also crossing a pretty clear line.

This was his post, remember, in a public place:

(I'm still fuming over the Clan being allowed in that late-era game, for instance: they should have been banned due to the Discovery Era basically negating most of the worst negative effects of their tech-disadvantage) which as the maintainer of the mod-mod everyone uses you help to ensure are OP'd in the first place (I've discussed how 90% of your changes in the long-run of a game indirectly favor the Clan before, for instance...), and you speak out of constant arrogance and conceit towards less experienced players (who you do your best to crush in all your multiplayer games- you always go for the newer/weaker guys early on- I did my research on your past games before coming up against you as an opponent) forgetting that you were once one yourself...

I mean, yes, the most offensive parts are when he's calling me a cheater. But saying the Clan should've been banned in '39, elaborating as to why, calling me out in particular, then mentioning ways in which they are benefited by mod changes, and finally rounding it up by saying I attack weak players early on, are all pretty clearly over the line as diplomacy.

Particularly so if I'm correct in remembering that this is when I was at war with Northstar with that warrior in his borders, which makes that last section very telling.


Not all the ones after that were quite so over the line - though many were, he definitely learnt no lessons from it - but I just asked them uniformly to stop because I knew he would go over the line.

[Mardoc]

I dunno. I guess I do eventually come back to the belief that it doesn't really matter what you did, Northstar would have found a way to take offense.

But this is a depressing subject. Anything happier to talk about?

[Qgqqqqq]

True.


Not in-game, because I haven't got the game

I could report my '40 duel with Dreylin, I suppose? That one's certainly going happy places