[Spoilers] This Perfect Place

[Mr. Cairo]

AT found me:

He's met everyone I've met and has been in no wars with any of them.

Also, I somehow missed something big last turn:

Gotta remember to check the events log every turn.
I was wondering why Gawdzak had yet to make any wonders despite being the only IND civ in the game, but for that exact reason the Pyramids make sense. He's adopted representation, and the amount of turns he has on his tech tells me that he's running two scientists somewhere, getting 12 beakers from them thanks to Rep.

[Mr. Cairo]

Ichabod built The Colossus, so I'm assuming he got Metal Casting with the Oracle, seems like a reasonable play. Nyles is fighting Yuri, and winning. Gawdzak is filling in all that land he has available to him as fast as possible, it will take him a while to make it useful though.

Not much to report on the home front, I'm just growing my cities up to the cap and filling in the backline. Next turn I get Alphabet, then build up cash for Currency. I'm still #1 in GNP at 100% science, and top 3 in hammers and food. A settler finished this turn as well, and I'll plant that city in 2 turns. I'm kinda over-saturating on workers: my 14th will come out next turn, but I think it's necessary, and I'm EXP so I might as well take advantage of the bonus as much as possible. I'll do a full "State of the Empire'" report in a few turns, once that new city has been planted and others have grown. My GS will pop out of Wild Child in 8 turns. Being able to 1-pop whip granaries is really nice.

My current tech plan after Currency is Construction -> HBR. If I see an opportunity, like another war between BGN and Gawdzak, I'll attack Gawdzak with HA's and Cats. Either way, once I get HBR I'll beeline for Knights.

[Mr. Cairo]

I founded another city this turn, you'll get to see it when I do a big Empire+Map overview after the next turn.

But, to keep my thread near the top tide you lurkers over, here are my Demos at 100% science.



That number one is either AT or Ichabod. Ichabod because he's steaming away with the game and the Colossus is a good wonder. AT because I agreed to OB with him last turn. I knew he already had currency, and all of my cities had IC trade routed with Dreylin's cities, so I knew that it would benefit him more than me. But, if I rejected it now, and re-offered when I have currency of my own, he might reject, which I do not want. Also, to get those sweet sweet IC trade routes, I'd need OB with someone other than Dreylin on that continent. I wouldn't want OB with Ichabod since he's already ahead, and Jowy for the same reason, but not as severely. Adrien would be unlikely to accept OB with me after our war, and I have no idea when I'll meet Molach. I have a galley going east along the islands to the north of Adrien, but I think that is where Jowy is located, not Molach. So, I decided to play it safe and accept AT OB offer.

This brings me nicely into the last bit of this post, my thoughts on the map.
This is how I think the map is, roughly (sorry for the awful paint job):


Two semi-circular continents, separated by a narrow straight, surrounded by islands. Is there a new world? Someone with good R&D skills could probably figure that out. That someone is not me. Anyway, this is an interesting set up. IC trade routes available right away, and the islands give opportunity to scout round the outside of the circle without being blocked by borders from coastal cities. The continents themselves seem pretty snaky, lots of large lakes and inlets and stuff in the middle. My land at the top is somewhat squeezed but I guess having only one land neighbor makes up for that? Happy fairly evenly distributed, but not a lot of multiples, except for the gems that Gawdzak has, which makes trading them not as appealing. All-in-all, a very interesting map.

[Mr. Cairo]

If Gawdzak wanted a reload cause he misclicked moving an Axe to kill my chariot, such that it just moved into the tile without declaring war, I have a serious problem accepting that as a legitimate cause for a reload. A simple, small-impact misclick should not be a reason to reload. If that wasn't the reason for the reload, then he shouldn't use the opportunity of a legitimate reload to fix that kind of mistake.

I have some issues with this whole situation.

Edit: Before the reload, I checked the game after Gawdzak had played, and an Immortal was sharing the tile with my chariot. Now after the reload I see that an axe has killed my chariot. An axe that wasn't in position to attack my chariot before, because I had played before him this turn (pre-reload), and I had moved my chariot in such a manner that only the immortal could attack it, with worse odds.

[OT4E]

Your chariot escaped by double move. Gawdzak played before you last turn, so this turn he could legitimately attack it.

[Mr. Cairo]

1) I was not aware that I needed to stick to a turn-split. I wasn't escaping, I was moving. If Gawdzak intended to attack that chariot and wanted to avoid me "double-moving", then it was up to him to play after me last turn, or before me this turn. I have been sticking to the principle of playing as soon as I reasonably can. Earlier, Adrien "double-moved" a worker on that island such that I couldn't take it, I didn't ask for a reload so I could play before him, I just adjusted my plans.

2) A minor misclick like the one that sent the immortal onto the same tile as my chariot should not be grounds for a reload. He didn't accidentally move his first settler next to an animal or anything serious like that, he just didn't hit the "declare war" prompt. All that would have happened had the reload not taken place is the immortal would have attacked the chariot next turn.

Edit: I don't care about the chariot. I just think that this reload goes against the principles that we have been playing by.

[OT4E]

You must talk to admin if you are not happy.

I can only say that people value "not double moves" rule over anything else. What is important is that if you feel that one of your units double-moves against one of your potential enemies, you'd better not perform it and let your opponent play between those moves or even ask him directly whether he objects against it or not. It is fully your responsibility to avoid double moves and your opponent can ask for reload any time if he feels that "no double moves" rule is violated which will of course cause wasting more time for all players in game.

In your case with Adrien he couldnt know that he is double moving, though in my opinion you still had all rights to ask a reload.

[Mr. Cairo]

I can only say that people value "not double moves" rule over anything else. What is important is that if you feel that one of your units double-moves against one of your potential enemies, you'd better not perform it and let your opponent play between those moves or even ask him directly whether he objects against it or not. It is fully your responsibility to avoid double moves and your opponent can ask for reload any time if he feels that "no double moves" rule is violated which will of course cause wasting more time for all players in game.

In your case with Adrien he couldnt know that he is double moving, though in my opinion you still had all rights to ask a reload.

So I think this seems to be an issue without any consensus. When the thing with Adrien's worker came up, the feedback I got was "yeah, sometimes that happens, and you just have to live with it." But now, there was a reload because Gawdzak considered me to have double-moved (I really wish someone had let me know that was the cause of the re-load). When I moved that chariot the idea that I was double-moving had not entered my mind, at all. Maybe it should have, as Gawdzak had done something similar before, but I had a chariot moving down around BGN, BRick, and Nyles for the last few turns without it being sniped.

You say it is the player's responsibility to not double-move, and during war-time, or when a turn-split had been established, that is self-evidently true. But in this situation things aren't so clear-cut. Say I needed a sub for that turn, and they didn't have time to go back and read all my reports. How would they have known that the chariot was in danger, and that moving before Gawdzak that turn was a double-move? There is no obvious answer that I can think of.

I can see the logic behind both arguments, and frankly, both seem like rule-lawyering to me. "I was technically double-moved, I want a reload" vs. "I was not under any technical obligation to avoid double-moving"
Which wins out seems like a hard question to answer for the most experienced pitbosser at RB, let alone for a noob like me still coming to grips with rules and concepts developed over years and years of games.

To me, and here I am obviously biased, but all this could have been avoided had Gawdzak simply not wanted to kill a chariot that would have minimal impact in the game.

[pindicator]

I'm sorry you weren't given a notice about the reasons. That's on me, I had assumed that I would get a confirmation to asking for a reload and I planned to tell you at that time. At the same time, there wasn't much more that I could have said other than a double move occurred and you'll be at war with Gawdzak because I don't want to spoiler any thing and commenting on Gawdzak's motivations are spoilerish in their own way. His reasons are his own, just like everyone's are.

Still, I should have said something to warn that you'd have to replay the turn and I apologize for that.

[Mr. Cairo]

I'm sorry you weren't given a notice about the reasons. That's on me, I had assumed that I would get a confirmation to asking for a reload and I planned to tell you at that time. At the same time, there wasn't much more that I could have said other than a double move occurred and you'll be at war with Gawdzak because I don't want to spoiler any thing and commenting on Gawdzak's motivations are spoilerish in their own way. His reasons are his own, just like everyone's are.

Still, I should have said something to warn that you'd have to replay the turn and I apologize for that.

Thank you.
Looking back with a calmer view I can see that I had double-moved, and that Gawdzak was in his rights to ask for a reload. It had somehow not occurred to me that I had technically double-moved that chariot and so when the reload happened I immediately assumed it was because of a misclick on Gawdzak's part, not on anything that I had done, which was why I reacted as I did. It really should have occurred to me that I did double-move that chariot, and from the perspective of anyone not in my brain it would have appeared as though I did so to gain an advantage.

I wonder if it would be considered appropriate/necessary to send Gawdzak a PM to that effect, apologizing for the delay, etc.? I don't want there to be any "out-of-game" bad blood between us.