CHAOS Realm

[Nelphine]

Heh I actually have left two tiles corrupter for the entirety of NY current nature game (gold and silver) because the city is klavkon, and getting sham or priests, and getting them out to that area would take forever. Sure I'm losing out in the long run, but 18 gold just isn't enough for me to be arsed to do anything about it.

[jhsidi]

I've been testing multiple pure-Chaos builds on Extreme over the past 2-3 weeks and have come to the conclusion that Chaos is the weakest of the 5 realms for early game.

Here are a couple typical game reports summarized from my last two games:

• Game 1: 10 chaos / specialist / omniscient, nomads -- Good start as I spawn by mithril, with rivers nearby. Early game I run into my neighbors, who represent all 4 other schools. I get lucky by securing a choke point and heavily fortifying the city; with Chaos Channels as my guaranteed pick, I get a bunch of flying mithril horsebowmen, plus the druid and assassin heroes. This carries me into mid-game: however, I'm a 1 trick pony. By the time I can get Efreet researched, my enemies have Spell Blast. I never completely cast Efreet a single time. They also have spells like web, crack's call and possess, so I lose key cities when they get lucky rolls. My heroes die to annihilate. The Myrran has trolls, which are a comlete counter to fire storm and my other direct damage skills. Loss: I'm chalking this one up to complete lack of protection in Chaos.
  
• Game 2: 10 chaos / specialist / sage master, halflings -- Amazing start as I'm on fertile lands with high production as well; I quickly research chaos channels and start on gargoyles. But, two nature wizards declare war on the earliest possible turn. Each single war bear unit can take out 2-3 hell hounds with a figure left over: warp creature and fire bolt barely slow them down. I only survive a couple attacks before losing everything but my capital. Game over.
  

The problem is essentially that Chaos is extremely weak in Common realm spells. This creates a drag in the early game that extends even into the later game (increasing in severity because, while the Common spells of other realms remain useful, Chaos Commons have little use in mid or late game). This is survivable in Hard or Normal, but in Extreme the true weakness of Chaos starts to show through.

Here's a spell by spell analysis:

• Hell Hounds -- inferior to all other early summons (including Guardian Spirit, since HH is a figure-based, low-health unit that becomes ineffective after a single attack). Distinguished only by its low cost.
  
• Corruption -- has no use in early game. Very limited effectiveness in Extreme games.
  
• Eldritch Weapon -- inferior to all other Common-level buffs, this is literally never worth the time spent casting. Testing with units that have EW shows little to no improvement over un-enchanted units. Also becomes crippled once you have Chaos Channels. Supposedly, you just cast this before CC, but that is a red herring: dispel is common and takes out EW extremely easily.
  
• Fire Elemental -- inferior to all other Common level battle summons except for the single situation of running into low-tier units without magic weapons. It's so weak that mid-tiers, such as pikemen, take it out even without magic weapon. Anything ranged, like shamans, is instant death. This is a particularly awful spell as it loses all utility in mid and late game, whereas centaurs or zombies are fairly durable and have a lot of utility uses, and phantom warriors retain their damage potential throughout the whole game.
  
• Warp Creature -- one of Chaos's two decent Commons. Cheap and effective. Still inferior to Black Sleep or Confusion, but it's OK.
  
• Shatter -- rarely useful given the presence of Warp Creature; despite what the CoM doc suggests, this isn't even remotely at parity with Black Sleep. The difference is that Black Sleep results in a creature's instantaneous death on the next attack (and combines very nicely with Death's undead-raising ability). Shatter leaves the unit alive, still able to dish a bit of damage (especially early game), and dispellable. I ignore this in favor of WC.
  
• Disrupt -- pretty much useless, especially early game when walls are rarely seen; later in the game, you usually have units with flight, so it's again useless.
  
• Warp Wood -- far more situational than the help doc suggests, as it mainly affects weak units that are just as easily destroyed by Fire Bolt (bowmen). Great for slingers and manticore, more or less a waste otherwise.
  
• Fire Bolt -- the other decent common, alonside Warp Creature. More or less at parity with Aether Sparks, Star Fires, Psionic Blast; Fairy Dust is situationally better; better than Life Drain but has no equivalent strategic purpose (raising zombies / healing the user).
  
• Wall of Fire -- a slightly sub-decent spell: it's useful in some early battles, although it's too expensive for overland / permanent casting on all cities. The reason I rank it lower than WC or FB is that it loses most utility in later game when units become essentially immune to a measly 10 attack.
  

Once you get into Uncommons, you're doing OK. But again, the lack of decent Commons is a weight that Chaos carries throughout the game. Consider the great Commons that other realms get, which remain useful essentially forever:

• Nature: Web! Web! Web! Call Centaurs, Earth Lore, Water Walking, War Bears, Nature's Eye, Earth to Mud
  
• Sorcery: Focus Magic, Resist Magic, Guardian Wind (soooo much better than Warp Wood), Counter Magic, Confusion, Floating Island, Aether Sparks, Phantom Warriors, Psionic Blast
  
• Death: Darkness, Ghouls, Wraith Form, Black Sleep, Cloak of Fear (often as useful as Immolation, which is one of the high points of the Chaos Uncommon book), Summon Zombies, Mana Leak, Weakness (similar difficult save vs as Warp Creature, superior in most cases)
  
• Life: Literally everything except, arguably, Guardian Spirit
  

Anyway, that's my take on Chaos: with the changes to Caster of Magic that provide new Uncommons to all the other realms, it has lost any points that made it stand out (Fire Bolt, Fire Elemental). And in general, its Commons are simply the worst set in the game.

Happy to provide suggestions for a few changes that could help, if you don't totally disagree with the basis of my argument :P

[Seravy]

I agree that Chaos is weak in the early game, albeit it is meant to be - it's one of the two realms which are weak early and very strong later.
However, it's most likely far too weak as is, and could use improvements on commons. (uncommons are mostly fine)

Hell Hounds - these are not as bad as they seem. As long as you make sure the hounds are the attackers (breath attacks are "attack only", they aren't used for counterattacking), they do fine - not against bears as those has too much armor but other early units. Nature and Death has better common creatures, but I'd say Life and Sorcery has worse (yes Nagas are a bit stronger but they cost a fortune to summon so the spell overall is worse)
Corruption - agreed, this isn't very useful in the early game or for human players in general, but disabling a gold, mithril or adamantium for the AI early enough can have massive effects on the game. Consider this a way to prevent some enemy troops from existing and attacking you. Of course if the enemy has no such ores, this spell is useless. (Haven't really tried if reducing their food/growth with spamming it everywhere achieves anything, but I'd guess not)
Eldritch Weapon - worst spell in the game and we had a long discussion on trying to come up with ideas to replace it but it was fruitless so it's still there.
Fire Elemental - I like this being a specialized "counter nonmagic weapons" unit - honestly that's very powerful for the early game when nothing has magic weapons - but it's a bit too weak even for that. Raising weapon Immunity from +7 to more, maybe +10 shields could improve it. (This would be a massive nerf to Barbarians though who do not have magic weapons)
Shatter - You're underrating this a lot. A unit with only 1 attack will deal close to no damage at all (most units have 2-3 shields even at the lowest level), and it costs much less than black sleep. They might dispel it but dispelling costs much more than the spell itself. The only problem is it won't allow you to deal with bears or other fantastic units.

[Nelphine]

I think my problem with chaos bring weak early game, is that they aren't actually strong late game. They have some of the strongest late game spells, I agree completely - but the AI knows this and unless you get them super early (very rares pre 1408), the AI won't actually let you use them. Except the summons, but arguably they have some of the worst very rare summons. (Archangel, demon lord, sky drake are all much better).

So chaos, instead of being incredibly strong late game (like sorcery with aether binding, Uranus' blessing, and time stop is ultra strong late game), chaos have the the highest potential late game strength as long as its not countered - but the AI knows better and counters it.

[Seravy]

I think my problem with chaos bring weak early game, is that they aren't actually strong late game. They have some of the strongest late game spells, I agree completely - but the AI knows this and unless you get them super early (very rares pre 1408), the AI won't actually let you use them. Except the summons, but arguably they have some of the worst very rare summons. (Archangel, demon lord, sky drake are all much better).

So chaos, instead of being incredibly strong late game (like sorcery with aether binding, Uranus' blessing, and time stop is ultra strong late game), chaos have the the highest potential late game strength as long as its not countered - buy the AI knows better and counters it.

Sorcery is the only realm that's even more "late game" than Chaos and might be able to counter it. But they are supposed to have a worse early game than Chaos - except that they probably do not, as Chaos commons are weak. (Chaos uncommons beat Sorcery uncommons though)

[jhsidi]

What other realm is supposed to be weak early game? Sorcery? I find Sorcery to be easy throughout the game, but in early game it's specifically good due to confusion and focus magic, both of which offer a ton of potential strategies. Aether sparks is quite useful (especially on enemy heroes / strong ranged units) and phantom warriors are very strong, as well. And, as mentioned above, all of these spells remain useful throughout. I can't see the comparison.

A word on Shatter.. I'm not saying it sucks if you consider it alone. Sure, it's theoretically just another -2 save spell that cripples a unit. But I'd counter that you're underestimating the drawbacks of the spell. First, it's invalid outside normal units-- that's huge (and makes no sense, really). Second, it competes with Warp Creature. And since WC has the -4 save, it usually makes more sense as a first cast. Using WC, I know I have a far higher chance to either drop those halberdiers to 3 attack, 2 defense or 0 resist; in case of 0 resist, then fine, I'll use Shatter. Third, as you get behind the very early game, it doesn't matter so much whether you're reducing Attack to 1 or just halving it. For instance, I used WC to clear out a nest of giant lizards with a hero: even if Shatter theoretically worked on the lizards, I wouldn't bother using it since they're "helpless" enough with 9 attack.

Chaos is actually the only realm, by the way, where spells heavily compete with each other. Warp creature and shatter are directly competitive; warp creature wins. Raise volcano and corruption also compete; the volcano usually wins. And all of the direct damage spells compete: once you have lightning bolt, fire bolt rarely makes an appearance.

I suspect what happened in the original design is that they wanted Chaos to be a heavy direct damage / offense realm.. then ran a bit short on ideas for exactly what that means or how it balances out. You see it throughout the realm, actually. I'll stand by Chaos Spawn being a poor summon, for instance: they're extremely good heavy hitters, but with high cost, low movement and low defense (seriously, black sleep works on them) they don't really balance out in the end.

The good part of Chaos is the... chaos. Warp creature is a great idea; shatter is boring. Chaos channels is fun. All the direct damage effects have enough randomness to feel fun, and magic vortex and call chaos are both wildly enjoyable (and may not work out for you at all!). Secondarily, the glass cannon aspect of chaos (hell hounds, chimera, doom bats, chaos spawn, plus the buffs) looks fun, but I feel it isn't yet balanced as well as the other realms. I also suspect that Chaos doesn't get played as much as other realms, because these "fun" parts are uneven and don't end up feeling cohesive or great. But it's not so bad that it ever gets prioritized to improve, instead it's just.. played less, or only in combination with better realms.

[Nelphine]

No, any wizard counters late game chaos. Disjunction is all that is needed, given the very high casting skills AI get regularly. And there is no uncommon spell in the game as good as aether binding - it literally wins games, made worse in conjunction with Uranus blessing. Even flight is arguably one of the best uncommon spells of all realms.

[Seravy]

Anyway, if there are good ideas for improving Chaos commons, let me know, as I don't have any (aside from buffing weapon immunity)

[jhsidi]

Okay, here are my suggestions for the Commons. Not all of the ideas are great but I feel that most have merit if you think along the lines of allowing use of Chaos commons throughout the game.

Warp wood -- Change to -4 save effect that has a chance of removing the ranged attack of *any* unit. Call it "Warp Space" instead (idea being that chaos magic warps the perceptual space in front of the unit, preventing long range shots).

Eldritch weapon -- replace with Flame Blade, leaving the cost of Flame Blade at current or even 10 mana higher (overland). This is justified by Focus Magic: it's pretty much the same effect but applied to melee or physical ranged (it's even a point weaker and doesn't have the mana bonus, so I'd argue FM is still a bit better). Use the freed up Uncommon slot for something new.

Shatter -- randomized: reduce movement by 2, to hit by -1, or inflict 5 fire damage on all figures. Allow use on fantastic creatures (is there any reason Shatter doesn't work on fantastics?)

Fire elemental -- Remove Weapon Immunity and increase defense by 2 so that it can survive a bit better outside of the very situational (and nonexistent, in late game) no-magic-weapon scenario. From there, I've got 3 ideas..
Idea 1: Give it a fire breath attack (5?)
Idea 2: Give it a ranged attack (3 shots, 6 strength)
Idea 3: Give it 1 cast of fire bolt
Bonus #4: My favorite idea is actually randomize the above ideas so that you get 1 of the above 3 results (same as the Demon). Increase cost a bit.

Disrupt -- 50/50 chance of breaking the wall; if you succeed, deal 20 physical damage to any unit in the same slot (I'm assuming walls are "in" one of the town spaces).

Hell hounds -- increase fire breath by 1, increase cost by 5-10. The point about fire breath not being used defensively is pretty significant; I feel like pumping fire breath on chaos units a bit would add a lot to strategy.

Corruption -- decrease cost slightly and add a chance of the corruption disappearing on its own each turn, same as volcanoes have. This would differentiate a bit and also solve for the really annoying side effect of corruption, i.e. AI that can't figure out how to ever address it or human players who are too lazy to.

In case you liked the idea of dropping Eldritch Weapon for Flame Blade and need an idea of what to fill the uncommon slot with.. what about another glass cannon style effect? It would be cool to have an effect that greatly increases the power of one of your units during battle, but kills it after the battle, as with Confusion.

[Seravy]

Warp Wood
It would be pretty difficult to add a save modifier where there isn't one, but making it able to destroy other kinds of ranged abilities is not a bad idea.
In fact, it's better without a save modifier - you already have Shatter to disable both ranged and melee (I still think 1 strength is as good as none) with a save modifier.
Being able to remove all types might be overkill though - maybe if it was specifically only bow/sling/boulder and chaos element ammo? Leaving nature and sorcery ammo alone, so Magicians are covered but Shaman are not...

on the other hand, buffing this spell might not help. Ultimately it still is a spell that disables only one particular aspect of a single unit. In a realm that could just outright kill it with other spells.

Eldritch weapon
This is exactly what has been considered earlier but we got stuck at "chaos needs no new uncommon spells".

In case you liked the idea of dropping Eldritch Weapon for Flame Blade and need an idea of what to fill the uncommon slot with.. what about another glass cannon style effect? It would be cool to have an effect that greatly increases the power of one of your units during battle, but kills it after the battle, as with Confusion.

This is not a bad idea actually. If the AI is instructed to only use it when the battle is about to be lost or the unit regenerated (assuming regeneration is not disabled), and the buff increases the movement and/or durability of the unit as well as the attack so that it has a good chance of actually reaching and hurting something instead of just being target practice for the human player's bowmen, then it can work.

Feels more like a spell for the Death realm though - gaining more power in exchange of sacrificing a unit. Unless....what if, the spell did this :

A random amount and type of buffs are applied to the unit (chosen from the existing 32 unit enchantment effects). At end of combat, there is a 10% chance for the unit to survive and retain the buff as an overland enchantment, a 40% chance for the unit to lose it, and a 50% chance for the unit to die (can or cannot regenerate, whichever we prefer?)
(On top of this, the unit should probably also gain +2 movement, shields and attack power in that combat only to make sure it can actually do something in the battle even if you don't roll a useful buff and get only water walking or true sight)

Doing this would eliminate Eldritch Weapon as a buff from the game, as its slot would be needed for this spell.

Keeping FB uncommon and adding this as a common is also an option.

Still, I'm not entirely sure when and what for the AI should use this spell (or me as a player). When being outnumbered and losing a battle, a direct damage spell guarantees I kill something, so it's better in all cases. When winning, why would I want to use a buff that makes me lose a unit that otherwise survives? In all cases, this spell feels an inferior choice to cast.
Now, if the unit wasn't killed at end of battle at a high chance, that's a different story, then this is a good thing to cast when expecting to win, like all other buffs. And in this case, the base buff (2 move etc) isn't necessary to be as high either.

Shatter
I prefer to keep this one as is, it's a pretty powerful spell even if you don't like it.

Fire Elemental
Having common spells that utilize the "Weapon Immunity" mechanic is essential to the overall balance of the game. This has to stay, but we can Add the new abilities/stats, albeit not a fan of giving this the ability to attack flying units. I rather add the 2 armor and/or buff the weapon immunity effect.

Disrupt
No to this idea - walls are supposed to help players, not hurt them. This is another massively underrated spell to be honest. Breaking the wall at the gate tile reduces the defense of the unit there by 2 and the AI will keep refilling the slot, so for a bargain of 5 MP you actually remove 2 defense from the entire enemy army. Maybe the problem is defense from walls being invisible so players don't realize it's helping them if they destroy it?

Hell Hounds
I guess increasing breath by 1 is ok...wait, I'm sure we already did that last year.
*checks stats
No, we increased melee,it's 4 melee 3 breath. What if it was 3 melee 5 breath instead? idk, honestly, breath is not very AI friendly as they don't position their units in a smart way. This would be a one-sided help for the human player.

Corruption
Don't see how this can help, and would make Shaman less meaningful.