Zalson plays one turn at a time [COMPLETE]

[Zalson]

When I started the game up, I thought I was only a few beakers short of 1-turning code of laws. Then I looked at it and realized that I would need to have a 180% multiplier for my 142 beakers to complete code of laws in one turn.

Yeah, don’t have that.

On to T122 (and 123 since I’m out late tomorrow)

T122
Baghdad overflows 4 hammers from its catapult. So it will build wealth until I can build a courthouse next turn.

Do some micromanagement (add priest specialists in Damascus; micro Mecca to grow to size 10 in 2T).

Ramesses has added two more war chariots. Troops move into closer position and aren’t attacked. The war chariots must have a city defense mission.





T123
Code of Laws comes in.

Next research target is…

iron working: it will help me get +1 happy via dyes and allow me to continue developing Damascus.

Other options would be … monarchy or civil service. But I can almost one turn Iron working so I’ll do that next turn.

Ramesses continues to create war chariots.



Finally realize where one of Ramasses’s cities is. And boy is it pretty! It’ll save me 100 hammers!



Mecca starts on a market. Switch pretty much everything to courthouses:



Next turn there will be a great bloodletting in Arabia.

[Zalson]

I lose my first casualty from defensive action: a war chariot takes out an unprompted axe with a 90% odds battle. I kill it with an axe.



Bombard Pi-Ramesses but the real prize is memphis. Lose two catapults to soften up the defenders but everything else goes nice and easy.



Memphis has some decent land. I’m happy it has a lighthouse. Only an idiot would build a lighthouse!



After the blood-letting. I think I killed 24 pop. Perhaps I was a bit overenthusiastic.



Demos are putrid now but they should be significantly better next turn.



T125
That’s much better.



Medina has 19 overflow. Since i don’t really need any additional units (I don’t think), i pick build wealth. Then I think, i could probably use another archer for the three cities that remain belonging to Ramesses. So, an archer. Then I switch to a chariot. That can reinforce for me.

Damascus starts a jewish missionary with its overflow.

Najran starts a courthouse.

Kufah microed to get me a chariot this next turn. I’ll merge him with Cao Cao for a super medic.

Baghdad starts a chariot as well. Finally, I chop out the barracks in Basra.

Field of battle:



Pi-Ramesses should fall … next turn? Maybe in 2T?

Everything is healing in Memphis. The archer that’s protecting my worker up by Thebes is going to defend Memphis.

[Zalson]

T125
Qin has gone “we have enough on our hands.” Also, there’s this spike. So I do need to hurry up and kill Ramesses. Just so I'm not in two wars at once.



T126
Kufah finishes its chariot and switches to building wealth. i’ll grow it to size 5 and chop into a settler.

I take Pi-Ramesses at the cost of only 2 catapults.



I’m not sure what to build after i build units; the war is winding up and I need to work on growth. So what do I build in the meantime? Workers when not growing and wealth/research when I need to grow?

Do I want to build wealth if I don’t have a market? I mean, obviously, I want to do so to retain overflow but do I get the multiplier on the output?

I now realize what people say about buildings “not paying back.” If something only saves me 1 GPT, it’s worth more to just build wealth instead, because I’ll get more than 1 GPT doing that. Obviously, the answer is “depends” but I think I understand that concept better now.

[Mardoc]

Memphis has some decent land. I’m happy it has a lighthouse. Only an idiot would build a lighthouse!

Heh - that's not a firm rule. Usually you don't want an early lighthouse, but you do need them by the time you have enough happiness to want to work the coast tiles. Most of T-Hawk and my arguments against your Medina lighthouse were implicitly including the fact that it's still awfully early in the game, your cities are happiness-capped, and land tiles are generally better than coast. Those factors will change as you progress and sooner or later you'll want the lighthouse after all.

I’m not sure what to build after i build units; the war is winding up and I need to work on growth. So what do I build in the meantime? Workers when not growing and wealth/research when I need to grow?

From looking at your new land, you definitely will need some more workers. If I remember correctly, you can still benefit from some settlers, too, to fill in your backlines - on top of any new areas unlocked by your conquest.

At this point in the game, I think you're to the point where every new city is worthwhile (or will be any moment). You have Currency and Code of Laws, so you can pay for the new cities. You've built and conquered enough cities that you're probably to the 'conqueror's plateau' where new cities don't increase the cost of old cities anymore.

Wealth/research can often find a home. You should check on your empire-wide gold:science ratio to decide which to build (depends on libraries, markets, academies, etc). If you can turn 1 gold into 1.1 beakers, then you want to build wealth; if you only get 0.9 beakers per gold, then you want to build research. Just move the slider up and down, and divide the change in beakers by the change in gold.

You might consider a navy. An island city would be worth quite a bit to you now, since it would double the value of most of your trade routes. I think you said there's some more Egypt that can be conquered overseas, too?

Then you can consider units. Anything you need in the near term, of course. After that, catapults. It takes forever and a day for them to obsolete, and they're still basically always useful.

Oh, and if you don't have anything worth building, that helps set your next research target . Do you need more happiness? Forges? A better unit to dump hammers into, something that will last? Go unlock something that would be worth building, for your empire in its current state.

Do I want to build wealth if I don’t have a market? I mean, obviously, I want to do so to retain overflow but do I get the multiplier on the output?

I'm 90% sure that neither wealth nor research gets to use multipliers on markets, libraries, etc, but they do apply Forge/Bureau hammer modifiers.

Still, the main consideration on 'do I want to build Wealth' is 'what else would I do with the hammers?'

I now realize what people say about buildings “not paying back.” If something only saves me 1 GPT, it’s worth more to just build wealth instead, because I’ll get more than 1 GPT doing that. Obviously, the answer is “depends” but I think I understand that concept better now.

Yep. Some factors to consider for 'it depends':

Will the building be worth more in the future? Both the time it takes to actually build the item, and the rest of the time you own the city. Enough more to matter?

What about other effects of the building in question? Does that market add happiness? Do you need the EP from a Courthouse, or culture from library?

[Zalson]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Mardoc. I really appreciate the time that you and others have taken to respond to the thread. It's a nice vote of confidence.

Heh - that's not a firm rule. Most of T-Hawk and my arguments against your Medina lighthouse were implicitly including the fact that it's still awfully early in the game, your cities are happiness-capped, and land tiles are generally better than coast. Those factors will change as you progress and sooner or later you'll want the lighthouse after all.

I will interpret that "Heh" as raucous laughter.

From looking at your new land, you definitely will need some more workers. If I remember correctly, you can still benefit from some settlers, too, to fill in your backlines - on top of any new areas unlocked by your conquest.

At this point in the game, I think you're to the point where every new city is worthwhile (or will be any moment). You have Currency and Code of Laws, so you can pay for the new cities. You've built and conquered enough cities that you're probably to the 'conqueror's plateau' where new cities don't increase the cost of old cities anymore.

Certainly agree with this(more workers and cities). I need at least 2-3 more to improve Damascus (for dyes and the grassland gems), plus at least 2-3 more for each city in the rapidly dwindling old Egypt.

So that's at least 8 more. I know what the next project is.

Wealth/research can often find a home. You should check on your empire-wide gold:science ratio to decide which to build (depends on libraries, markets, academies, etc). If you can turn 1 gold into 1.1 beakers, then you want to build wealth; if you only get 0.9 beakers per gold, then you want to build research. Just move the slider up and down, and divide the change in beakers by the change in gold.

I know I've seen this explained before but thanks for giving the primer on how to do it. Thanks!

Right now, it's a non-starter because I can only build wealth, but, well, it's good to know the why/how behind the mechanical solutions.

You might consider a navy. An island city would be worth quite a bit to you now, since it would double the value of most of your trade routes. I think you said there's some more Egypt that can be conquered overseas, too?

I assumed so because of the galley but from what I can see, he never founded off the continent. I just didn't pinpoint the borders in the fog until recently.

Then you can consider units. Anything you need in the near term, of course. After that, catapults. It takes forever and a day for them to obsolete, and they're still basically always useful.

Oh, and if you don't have anything worth building, that helps set your next research target . Do you need more happiness? Forges? A better unit to dump hammers into, something that will last? Go unlock something that would be worth building, for your empire in its current state.

This makes 100% sense, especially about the cats. Don't know why I had that chariot obsession recently (well, I do know; I was thinking that two-movers would get to the front in time for some kind of usefulness but we'll have to see.)

[Zalson]

T126:
Action Plan: 8 workers (currently have 13).

Someone somewhere said that the key to worker building is to pause for as short a period of possible when building workers. Chops are very nice for that reason. So how can I get 8 workers in a few turns?

1 in Baghdad
1 in Mecca
1 in Medina
1 in Damascus
1 in Heliopolis
1 in Thebes
1 in Kufah
2 in Najran
2 in Basra (chops)

Some more growing will have to happen first, I think.

T127 for real
Iron Working comes in and I start meditation on pure overflow. Might as well get toward Monarchy on the cheap. priesthood will follow at max.



Configure mecca to grow in 1T. Switch it to wealth as I’m over to 100% science.



I will still need some units and Medina can’t grow in 1T, so I switch it to get the chariot out in 1T. Then it can build wealth while it grows.



Can’t get to 1T growth with Damascus so it’ll work the gems mine for 1T.



Baghdad … has war weariness! Also, it’s got some more growing to do so I configure for max growth.

Najran has more than enough cottages for the time being. once it finishes the courthouse, I think it will end up building an aqueduct. The worker can be built by someone else (Baghdad/Medina).



Kufah regrows in 2T as well. Need to wait to fill up the foodbox before I whip so it can grow for a bit. I have chop finishing in 2 turns. I can make 14 production this turn and 2x whip into the worker.

That gives me: 14 production +11 production(I think) for 25+60. With the chop the next turn, that gives us 55+60/60, with 115/60 and workers 2T in a row. That feels fairly slick?

Naturally, Heliopolis whips its courthouse before I decide to build the worker. Why I could not tell you. Brainfart. Maybe not a bad move but still a brainfart.

Thebes starts a worker and loses its fishing boats. :sigh: I’ll just kill Ramesses, how about that.

Basra needs to grow to size 4 before I can try the same trick there. But believe me, I’ll try.



Ramesses doesn’t have a lot in Pi-Rameses (to be renamed Elephantine so I don’t look silly in the future)



T128
I couldn’t resist rolling it. So I did.

Kufah overflowed to exactly what I predicted but my math was wrong: 41+74 = 115/60.

2x whip the worker in Thebes. Also, need to move the archer out of the city because Memphis vulnerable to a chariot attack.



In other news, I microed Medina for 1T growth and switched Baghdad to a worker.



Heliopolis starts a Madrassa because I am silly sometimes.



Memphis starts a worker. Might need something else. But I can chop into the worker for a 1 pop whip. Not sure; might switch next turn.

Most of my soldiers are now healed and are being shuffled away from Memphis.



One more turn-itis is silenced.

[Mardoc]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Mardoc. I really appreciate the time that you and others have taken to respond to the thread. It's a nice vote of confidence.

I enjoy your reports! And look forward to the point where you're better than me . Given that you're practicing while I'm not, it's only a matter of time.

Certainly agree with this(more workers and cities). I need at least 2-3 more to improve Damascus (for dyes and the grassland gems), plus at least 2-3 more for each city in the rapidly dwindling old Egypt.

So that's at least 8 more. I know what the next project is.

Hmm. Looking at your most recent screenshots, you've kept up well with improvements in your core; it looks like you've generally got a couple extra improved tiles per city. I know part of that is the recent whipping spree, but probably you can back off a smidge and get some of the work done by just redeploying workers to your new lands.

Unless, of course, you're about to unlock a good bit of happiness and/or settle a bunch more cities. Which you probably are . I admit, although it's possible to overbuild workers, hardly anyone actually does so.

I know I've seen this explained before but thanks for giving the primer on how to do it. Thanks!

Right now, it's a non-starter because I can only build wealth, but, well, it's good to know the why/how behind the mechanical solutions.

Honestly, it's a detail. Most empires, most of the time, will be pretty close to 1:1. Since libraries come before markets, most people are skewed toward wanting to build wealth anyway.

Picking the right one of wealth or research to build can get you a little more efficiency, but don't lose sleep over it (or research Alphabet just for the option).

But...it is a topic that's possible to get right or wrong. Most decisions in civ can only be analyzed so far, at the end you've got to go with your gut because it's a trade off between things that can't be compared directly. Is three commerce worth more than one food? Is it more important to have a tech or increase my army? Compared to that, 'wealth or research' is easy! You only have to assume that the purpose of gold is to become beakers, and do a little math .

You might consider a navy. An island city would be worth quite a bit to you now, since it would double the value of most of your trade routes. I think you said there's some more Egypt that can be conquered overseas, too?

I assumed so because of the galley but from what I can see, he never founded off the continent. I just didn't pinpoint the borders in the fog until recently.

Ok, so maybe it can wait until Egypt is dead, and you'll need to put settler/worker/garrison on the boats instead of 'axe/axe/sword'. Still worth founding some intercontinental trade routes as soon as you can divert the production.

This makes 100% sense, especially about the cats. Don't know why I had that chariot obsession recently (well, I do know; I was thinking that two-movers would get to the front in time for some kind of usefulness but we'll have to see.)

I admit, when not building cats, 2-movers are generally the other handy thing to have. Tactical flexibility, strategic flexibility, logistics, and the potential for an extra promo from stables, all good things.

They are generally more use against humans than AIs, because AIs will let you walk up to their cities, and generally let you have the initiative. Even against AI's they're handy, though.

The one caveat is that any two-movers who can't get to the front before Egypt is dead, should probably be Horse Archers. Your next war is likely to be against something more than axes.

[Zalson]

Hmm. Looking at your most recent screenshots, you've kept up well with improvements in your core; it looks like you've generally got a couple extra improved tiles per city. I know part of that is the recent whipping spree, but probably you can back off a smidge and get some of the work done by just redeploying workers to your new lands.

Unless, of course, you're about to unlock a good bit of happiness and/or settle a bunch more cities. Which you probably are . I admit, although it's possible to overbuild workers, hardly anyone actually does so.

It's two fold: I tend to overimprove the large cities that I have, as opposed to building improvements just in time. This means that I neglect new cities.

From what I can see, I'm adding at least +2 happiness in the next few turns via Sugar and Dyes, with Silver and HR following shortly thereafter. So I will have some room to grow.

Also, I've got 13 workers for 11 cities with 2 more coming. And several of them are trapped in jungle. So eight more plus Ramesses 2(only 2 I can see!) means I have 23 for 13 cities which is much better, especially since I want to have probably 12 more cities in the near future. (2 in the west, 4 in the north, 3 in the east, and 3 in old Egypt). But I can build those workers as I need them. 23 should help me respond to specific areas a little more rapidly.

That reminds me that I'll need to switch to caste system when I make that settling push (most sites will have their resources in the 2nd ring), and use spiritual to the max. I am proud of my whipping spree recently. I've never used the whip so liberally; it's nice to know I'm playing somewhat efficiently.

Honestly, it's a detail. Most empires, most of the time, will be pretty close to 1:1. Since libraries come before markets, most people are skewed toward wanting to build wealth anyway.

Picking the right one of wealth or research to build can get you a little more efficiency, but don't lose sleep over it (or research Alphabet just for the option).

But...it is a topic that's possible to get right or wrong. Most decisions in civ can only be analyzed so far, at the end you've got to go with your gut because it's a trade off between things that can't be compared directly. Is three commerce worth more than one food? Is it more important to have a tech or increase my army? Compared to that, 'wealth or research' is easy! You only have to assume that the purpose of gold is to become beakers, and do a little math .

I am a very intuitive person, so supplementing my intuitive abilities with simple math is very helpful.

Ok, so maybe it can wait until Egypt is dead, and you'll need to put settler/worker/garrison on the boats instead of 'axe/axe/sword'. Still worth founding some intercontinental trade routes as soon as you can divert the production.

I hope there are some islands nearby. Otherwise, I'm not too terribly far from optics.

I admit, when not building cats, 2-movers are generally the other handy thing to have. Tactical flexibility, strategic flexibility, logistics, and the potential for an extra promo from stables, all good things.

They are generally more use against humans than AIs, because AIs will let you walk up to their cities, and generally let you have the initiative. Even against AI's they're handy, though.

The one caveat is that any two-movers who can't get to the front before Egypt is dead, should probably be Horse Archers. Your next war is likely to be against something more than axes.

Yeah but that requires horse archery ... which isn't an enormous priority for me ATM :P

Now, once Qin attacks, that'll probably be a different story.

I enjoy your reports! And look forward to the point where you're better than me smile. Given that you're practicing while I'm not, it's only a matter of time.

A boy can dream. Also, I'm tremendously excited to be an expert at an 11 year old game that once again is threatened with obsolescence.

[Zalson]

Incremental improvements:

I need to add a monastery to:

Mecca
Damascus
Najran
Baghdad (this will get 3 more cottages)

This will result in me spending 180 hammers (25% discount via org religion) to get a 10% boost to beakers. Which would, currently, translate into at least 20 beakers per turn for the next 100 turns. That's at least 200 beakers for 180 hammers, which is better than a 1:1 exchange.

Research targets:
Priesthood (1)
Monarchy (2)
Metal Casting (2ish?)
Alphabet

Wonders:
Hanging Gardens (chop in Thebes? Need aqueduct + forge... ew; alternatively, thebes could grow HuGE and whip out the remainder of the wonder. That might actually be the best idea....
MoM (chop in iron x city NW of Mecca; needs a forge... and marble)

[Mardoc]

It's two fold: I tend to overimprove the large cities that I have, as opposed to building improvements just in time. This means that I neglect new cities.

You could work on this directly instead of band-aiding it with new workers...

From what I can see, I'm adding at least +2 happiness in the next few turns via Sugar and Dyes, with Silver and HR following shortly thereafter. So I will have some room to grow.

But yeah, this probably means you will need the new workers anyway.

I hope there are some islands nearby. Otherwise, I'm not too terribly far from optics.

Hah - I assumed, and you know what happens when you assume .

Yeah but that requires horse archery ... which isn't an enormous priority for me ATM :P

Mostly I meant, don't dump a lot of hammers into chariots if you don't have a particular plan for them, because they don't age well.

But what are your current mid-term goals? Short term, it's finish Egypt. But mid term, what are you working on? I see you're grabbing Monarchy, but not exactly why you're grabbing it.

A boy can dream. Also, I'm tremendously excited to be an expert at an 11 year old game that once again is threatened with obsolescence.

Maybe don't look too closely at my win-loss record...

This will result in me spending 180 hammers (25% discount via org religion) to get a 10% boost to beakers. Which would, currently, translate into at least 20 beakers per turn for the next 100 turns. That's at least 200 beakers for 180 hammers, which is better than a 1:1 exchange.

Care to show your work here? Your screenshots show 147 bpt for the whole empire; presumably those four cities are less. Also, that's 147 bpt at full slider, but it appears from your expenses that you can only run full slider 50-60% of the time.

Research targets:
Priesthood (1)
Monarchy (2)
Metal Casting (2ish?)
Alphabet

Why, exactly? In particular, why Alphabet? I can see the benefits elsewhere (although even Monarchy might not be worth the anarchy).

A little more long term, what do you want for the next 20 turns? 50?

Hanging Gardens (chop in Thebes? Need aqueduct + forge... ew; alternatively, thebes could grow HuGE and whip out the remainder of the wonder. That might actually be the best idea....

There's a dramatic penalty for rushbuying wonders. I think you'll find that it would take well over a 10-pop whip to get the HG. And that the wonder itself isn't really *that* expensive.

MoM (chop in iron x city NW of Mecca; needs a forge... and marble)

MoM is usually quite good. If you go this route, make sure to spend enough time working specialists that you actually get the four golden ages that are typical, though!