Hearthstone

[Kuro]

1. For the release of TGT, Ben Brode stated that they increased the likelihood of TGT cards appearing over other cards, and that it would be temporary. Therefor, you can expect TGT cards to appear slightly more often.

Hearthstone currently has 586 collectable cards, AKA draftable cards. If you drafted standard Fate Reforged + Dragons of Tarkir packs from MTG, you'd have 449 cards to choose from. This means there's 137 more cards to draft in a Hearthstone Arena than an MTG draft (I use MTG drafts because it's the closest comparison I have). That's a fair amount, but not devastating, especially when you consider the dilution is slightly less because Hearthstone is spread over 9 classes instead of 5 colors (and have generic mana).

Personally, I haven't noticed a dilution in overall quality or "crappy packs" and I've already gotten high end runs due to this. The kind of variance you're talking about happens in every draft system because it's sort of the entire point of a draft system to have high variance in card picks. They should indeed allow a second, formatted Arena system when the next expansion comes out though.

2. Joust isn't really all that awful for Arena. Note that Hearthstone's base game is low variance, so higher variance must be added in other areas, I'd say the really bad one about this is actually Armored warhorse just because of how different joust vs. not jousting it is. Master Jouster feels more fine because of the fact it is a below-curve monster when you lose and an above-curve but not game winning card when you win. Most other Joust cards are fine for not providing too swingy of effects. As for my personal thoughts on the mechanic...eh, it's okay.

3. This one feels just patently wrong. You know what the best class is in Arena right now, using HearthArena class winrates as an example? Rogue, the WORST class at Inspiring! Why? Because Rogue plays a tempo based game that dominates the mid game with value and early drops. Second is Paladin. And why is that? While an Inspire card is a big help, Murloc Knight obviously, another reason is because they too have a lot of tempo (Murloc Knight isn't just good for value, but because it is a high tempo card), especially because another great card for Paladins is Seal of Champions from TGT.

The meta has gotten slower but if you're getting that many topdeck wars, it may be your drafting or playstyle. I get into some but not enough it would bother me for sure, since...I mean it's kind of expected to get some and it'd be pretty problematic if topdeck wars never happened (For example, it'd mean little reprocussions for running a bad-to-topdeck card like Twilight Drake).

Magic does really need a good online system (It'd need to be F2P so I could use it, but). Magic Online is crap. Magic DUels won't even open for me. It's bad for the leading card game in the industry to be so behind in a key sector. I love Magic but I don't play it nearly as often as I would because I can only use a 3rd party program to do so.

(Also, IMO, last hitting is not an awful design descision. It has a skill floor, but it's not one that is hard to overcome to do good on a /base level/ and despite having hardly played a MOBA before, and not in over 2 years from when I last played a game of Awesomenauts, I got the concept and did good enough at last hitting to follow my level. I'm a mere Bronze Scrub ATM but while some of that is my last hitting, a lot more is running 25-30 FPS game and the fact I'm not good at some classes of champion like ADC or hard carry.

Last hitting is important in League because tension, save for a few characters like say Riven, doesn't reach a notable level just from kits until around Level 6, when ultimates happen, and likewise it would be too swingy without last hitting, not only due to less objectives, but because of how levelling works. Last hitting not only creates a laning phase, but creates simple and intuitive tension early: Do I go for the minion and risk getting hit, hit the enemy champion or stay back? This adds necessary tension early and helps to also smooth out early balance.

Note that the lack of last hitting in HotS is one of the reasons, along with snowballing and some other stuff, that HotS is /designed/ to go significantly faster than other MOBAs: The game does not have the ability to create an adequate laning phase that lasts too long and so must skip over early tension by making "laning" as it is a lot shorter. Also note that last hitting not being there is one of the biggest reasons HotS is so snowbally, as last hitting also functions as a catch-up mechanism by being, when pushed in, "safe gold" to get to catch you up to a certain point. It also means that teamfighting and objectives are significantly more swingy, even if their power level is pushed down, because last hitting as a means to combat these is non-existant.

I don't really play HotS, mostly because my computer /cannot/ run it (I only ever managed to complete a single game with 10 or less FPS), but this is what I hear both from my friends and high end people and by applyin what I know of game design to the difference in HotS and League.)

[Cheater Hater]

(Before I start, just note I like the discussion, and am just attacking ideas, not people)
1. Magic sets are a lot more cohesive than the five sets for Hearthstone (Basic/Classic, Naxx, GvG, Blackrock, Grand Tournament) have been. Going back to DDF (since you used it as an example), if you see Dragon-related cards early in pack one, you can be reasonably sure that you'll see some Dragons in later packs, or if you don't, you can cut the card. Your numbers are also slightly misleading, since while the cards are spread out over more classes (and you'll only see 1 of 9 as opposed to 2 or 3 of 5), there are a much higher percentage of colorless/generic cards in Hearthstone than Magic. In addition, common print runs in Magic also help mitigate the variance and balance the colors.

2. I'm not arguing that Hearthstone doesn't need more variance as a result of the mana system/smaller deck size (though I'd argue that's why the mana system is Magic is better than people think it is), the problem is that it all ends up being post-decision randomness. I read an article recently (by Jon Loucks, former Magic pro/Limited Resources cohost, talking about how it effects his new game--start with the "Roll with It" heading) that explained the problem that I've been feeling with Hearthstone for a while--post-decision randomness just feels bad in a lot of ways. Jousting is the crux of a lot of these problems (especially in Arena, where you can control it even less). Still, I'm wondering why someone thought an effect that not only works less than half the time, but leads to more required note-taking at the highest levels was a good idea.

3. Is there a source for those stats? In particular, is Rogue only best because only good players/experts with Rogue are picking it/recording it in HearthArena, or does it have a similar sample size to the other classes?
I feel like part of it is that I'm not playing nearly as much as most other people (even in this topic)--I'm lucky if I finish one Arena run a week, and I've been recently ramping up my play.

Magic Digital: To be fair, Magic is always going to be one step behind when it comes to MTGO, since it is a much more complex program both in the rules (it isn't asynchronous, and has so many more corner cases) and the economy (redemption means it will always be linked to paper, and it can't get too big and cannibalize the paper game and/or overwhelm their capacity). Of course, that doesn't excuse Magic Duels or Wizards Event Reporter's problems, but that may be a bandwidth problem as well (their digital department is way too small and doesn't pay enough to get actually good people).

MOBA stuff: I'm not saying you should be able to just stand in the lane and get the gold in LoL (like XP), I'm saying it should work just like Champion kills do (after you hit something, if it dies in the next few seconds to minions/the turret, you get the kill credit). Is that as bad of an idea?
The problems with HOTS being too snowbally in my opinion come from two main sources: each level is magnified (since each level is collectively 5 levels--this is the worst at the 9->10 barrier when there are 5 ults to 0), and the neutral objectives need to be tuned better at the margins (Infernal Shrines has way too strong punishers that don't appear to change based on the number of creeps the other team killed being the main thing, but minor things like the Spider Gems/Doubloons not being able to be turned in while the spiders/cannons are out are also annoying). I haven't really gotten into HOTS yet (I'm only Level 21 and not in Ranked, I haven't read much strategy stuff, and I haven't watched any pro games, while I have done so for LoL and am in high Silver 3), so I'm not taking much stock in those initial impressions yet.

[Cheater Hater]

Now, separate from all that discussion, we come back to that Fireball-less, Polymorphless deck I complained about earlier--I figured I might as well show it for some context:




And yes, somehow that deck managed to go 9-3, which is my best run ever, I'm pretty sure--it started 2-2, then somehow went on a 7-0 run before dying to a Paladin with Eye for an Eye (though ironically, the card that dealt the killing blow was the 4/4 Inspire guy we were arguing about). I'm not sure if I can draw any conclusions from this run (other than maybe Spellslinger is a good card, or that Flamestrike is the real card that Mage decks need, and the other removal is replaceable), but I'm certainly glad (275 gold, even if the basic pack was lackluster)

Now that I'm going to start my next Arena soon, what should I use to record it? Any easy-to-use services you recommend?

[v8mark]

MOBA stuff: I'm not saying you should be able to just stand in the lane and get the gold in LoL (like XP), I'm saying it should work just like Champion kills do (after you hit something, if it dies in the next few seconds to minions/the turret, you get the kill credit). Is that as bad of an idea?

Kuro's done a very good job of explaining why last-hitting is desirable and even necessary in LoL, so this is really just to add to his analysis. I'm also very biased here--I've played three games total of HotS (although watched a fair bit of it) but am a diamond-ranked player in LoL, so take this for what it's worth. But IMO this shift would seriously weaken the tension Kuro talks about in League's laning phase. Coming forward to last-hit minions leaves you open to harassment from the enemy, and the predictability of it (hey, the minion's low, he's coming forward to last-hit!) magnifies this threat significantly.

Riot have talked quite consistently about their design philosophy in LoL, which is that there should be a mix of micro and macro factors in determining a winner. Last-hitting, and the laning phase more generally, is a micro factor, and removing it would shift the balance hugely in the direction of macro play. HotS does this, and as a result has an almost exclusively objective-based focus. LoL's objectives are designed to be on that sweet spot of balance... is it worth grouping for this dragon, or is it better for the team if the carries are allowed a free lane in which to farm? The answer to this question differs in almost every game, and incorporates a diverse array of variables: do we have hypercarries who need farm to outscale? How good is our teamfight? Is the fifth dragon a realistic prospect later in the game? What are the consequences if we lose a fight? etc). Baron is likewise one of a couple of objectives later in the game, but is far from the sole focus. In HotS this strategic balance is almost non-existent in my experience. But again, I'm at very different levels of understanding in each game, so it's very possible I'm missing something very basic...

Last-hitting does create a bit of a skill floor, but honestly LoL isn't a game that is designed to be immediately rewarding in the way that HotS is. The variety and depth of its gameplay is designed to appeal to people who make a significant investment in it. This is why you have to reach level 30 before you go into ranked play--this is weeks of regular gameplay by itself, at a minimum.

Anyway, back to Hearthstone--good work on 9 wins! And yes, Flamestrike is the money spell for Mages. Even more so now that sweepers are rarer than they used to be, and that there are so many board-swarming Paladins out there.

The source for the stats Kuro mentioned is here. For the Rogue, I think the stats are skewed towards good players, yes. Good players are more likely to do well with rogue than bad players in comparison to other classes. Partly this is because good players will push tempo, and partly just because of the nature of the hero power (a rookie will often dagger up and hit face on turn 2, effectively wasting half of its power!)

[v8mark]

Now that I'm going to start my next Arena soon, what should I use to record it? Any easy-to-use services you recommend?

Recording in what sense? To track your runs, HearthArena is what you want... for video recording software, Open Broadcasting Software (OBS) seems to be the agreed standard.

[Kuro]

"MOBA stuff: I'm not saying you should be able to just stand in the lane and get the gold in LoL (like XP), I'm saying it should work just like Champion kills do (after you hit something, if it dies in the next few seconds to minions/the turret, you get the kill credit). Is that as bad of an idea?"

Before getting to discussion on other parts: Yes, it's a bad idea, because it removes much of the tension in the game because you can hit a target and then just back off, in addition to AoE spells being significantly stronger than their already strong farming tools (since you just AoE a wave with much less care to its HP). It also puts significantly more stress than already is on melee characters, who must walk up and hit a CS to get it but now must contend with the fact that ranged characters may hit and forget to CS, and characters who use primarily single target abilities, for the same reason.

It also could cause a lot of issues at higher levels of play because it means that it is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to "freeze" a wave like this, or in other words to hold a wave in one spot, which could lead to too sharp of an increase in safety and reliability.

Finally, more important for a game enjoyment perspective than balance, it removes interactivity, as you now need to care much less about the HP of minions or pay as much attention and there would be less of an onus on doing something to someone "going for" a last hit (Since there would be a much larger window to get a "last hit"). This reduces interaction between both laners and the player vs. the minion, which is bad as it is the point in the game where direct interaction is most important (due to midgame and on starting to put focus on objectives, wave control, teamfighting etc which causes different interactions).

"1. Magic sets are a lot more cohesive than the five sets for Hearthstone (Basic/Classic, Naxx, GvG, Blackrock, Grand Tournament) have been. Going back to DDF (since you used it as an example), if you see Dragon-related cards early in pack one, you can be reasonably sure that you'll see some Dragons in later packs, or if you don't, you can cut the card. Your numbers are also slightly misleading, since while the cards are spread out over more classes (and you'll only see 1 of 9 as opposed to 2 or 3 of 5), there are a much higher percentage of colorless/generic cards in Hearthstone than Magic. In addition, common print runs in Magic also help mitigate the variance and balance the colors."

Wouldn't it being spread out lead to less dilution since a good neutral card gets to be good in all 9 classes? It's a bit easier to draft synergy-based decks in Magic, but I'd say it is easier to draft a better overall deck in Hearthstone, though I do not get to draft Magic often sadly.

"2. I'm not arguing that Hearthstone doesn't need more variance as a result of the mana system/smaller deck size (though I'd argue that's why the mana system is Magic is better than people think it is), the problem is that it all ends up being post-decision randomness. I read an article recently (by Jon Loucks, former Magic pro/Limited Resources cohost, talking about how it effects his new game--start with the "Roll with It" heading) that explained the problem that I've been feeling with Hearthstone for a while--post-decision randomness just feels bad in a lot of ways. Jousting is the crux of a lot of these problems (especially in Arena, where you can control it even less). Still, I'm wondering why someone thought an effect that not only works less than half the time, but leads to more required note-taking at the highest levels was a good idea."

Personally, although again I do not get to MTG often due to how MTG is done, I prefer Mad Bombers and Knife Jugglers to mana screw, but they definitely make the RNG more "apparent" so they have more backlash. I'm pretty neutral on Joust, it feels a bit better than Clash to me but that's mostly because the Hearthstone enviroment is more suited for it (And it works a bit better with smaller decks it feels like).

"3. Is there a source for those stats? In particular, is Rogue only best because only good players/experts with Rogue are picking it/recording it in HearthArena, or does it have a similar sample size to the other classes?
I feel like part of it is that I'm not playing nearly as much as most other people (even in this topic)--I'm lucky if I finish one Arena run a week, and I've been recently ramping up my play."

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/com...throne_in/

Only a 1 week sample (You can see Warrior get hurt more than others due to the fact most of its best cards are outside it, despite awesome cards like Sparring Partner and Bash), but here it is. I don't think they list the amount of games played but it's likely a relatively even distribution like pre-TGT: With over 19,000 games the distribution probably isn't TOO big of a deal for the moment.

HearthArena boasts a slightly-above-average playerbase but isn't that much higher than average.

"Magic Digital: To be fair, Magic is always going to be one step behind when it comes to MTGO, since it is a much more complex program both in the rules (it isn't asynchronous, and has so many more corner cases) and the economy (redemption means it will always be linked to paper, and it can't get too big and cannibalize the paper game and/or overwhelm their capacity). Of course, that doesn't excuse Magic Duels or Wizards Event Reporter's problems, but that may be a bandwidth problem as well (their digital department is way too small and doesn't pay enough to get actually good people)."

Personally, I think MTG should look towards making it much more online and even "cannibalize" the paper card game some. Paper card games have a lot of issues solved online and MTG could be in an iffy spot, say, 10 years from now if many good digital card games come out. I think a larger, better online program and MTG IRL can co-exist peacefully.

"Now that I'm going to start my next Arena soon, what should I use to record it? Any easy-to-use services you recommend?"

Record results or record video? For results, HearthArena is a good website, and I keep a personal spreadsheet (Someone else made it and I'd have no idea how to duplicate it, though. For videos, I don't really know.

As a note at your deck, Spellslinger is high variance but I'd say your deck is above average as it has few really bad cards, good tempo and fairly decent value.

[Cheater Hater]

MOBA: Isn't a teamfight (where both sides are generally equal) almost all micro though? If I'm going to see micro in my game (and I agree that a balance of micro and macro is important, even if I'm biased towards the macro side), I'd much rather have it focused on the most exciting moments than repetitive farming.

Card Quality/Variance: Synergy means that decks can be more than the sum of their parts, and thus it's a lot harder to see what the "best" deck in a pod is (especially in synergy-heavy formats like Innistrad or Masters sets). Hearthstone, by comparison, relies a lot more on raw power, and a lot of cards are just better than others. Obviously curve still plays a role, but you could do a lot better with a pure pick order than you would in Magic.

Magic Online: In some sense, Magic Duels is a reinvention of Magic, since it's a subset without as many corner cases (and some features missing, notably a mana pool and mana creatures). However, Magic Online can't be simplified; even if you ditched the connection to paper (which can't happen without uproar; in some developing countries grinding MTGO pays better than minimum wage, and they're sensitive to any change in the economy, like prize payout changes), you can't simplify it without losing the connection to paper entirely (and considering online is the future of eternal formats due to the reserve list, that would be another disaster).

Recording Arena: So my choices to record the draft either involve doing so manually (presumably HearthArena has a relatively easy means to do so?) or recording a video? Based on all the crazy Hearthstone data mining I see paraded about (especially thrown in the face of Wizard's archaic data mining/API policies), I expected something I could run alongside Hearthstone and it would do all the dirty work for me

[Dantski]

Recording Arena: So my choices to record the draft either involve doing so manually (presumably HearthArena has a relatively easy means to do so?) or recording a video? Based on all the crazy Hearthstone data mining I see paraded about (especially thrown in the face of Wizard's archaic data mining/API policies), I expected something I could run alongside Hearthstone and it would do all the dirty work for me

With heartharena this is the process you go through (after signing up of course!)

1. Click start new arena
2. Select which class you picked
3. Enter the 3 cards available each pick. Its pretty painless since typing "inf" will quickly give you Gnomeregon Infantry and Worgen Infiltrator to select.
4. After you're done you go to the results and rewards tab to enter what happened.

[Kuro]

MOBA: Isn't a teamfight (where both sides are generally equal) almost all micro though? If I'm going to see micro in my game (and I agree that a balance of micro and macro is important, even if I'm biased towards the macro side), I'd much rather have it focused on the most exciting moments than repetitive farming.

Card Quality/Variance: Synergy means that decks can be more than the sum of their parts, and thus it's a lot harder to see what the "best" deck in a pod is (especially in synergy-heavy formats like Innistrad or Masters sets). Hearthstone, by comparison, relies a lot more on raw power, and a lot of cards are just better than others. Obviously curve still plays a role, but you could do a lot better with a pure pick order than you would in Magic.

Magic Online: In some sense, Magic Duels is a reinvention of Magic, since it's a subset without as many corner cases (and some features missing, notably a mana pool and mana creatures). However, Magic Online can't be simplified; even if you ditched the connection to paper (which can't happen without uproar; in some developing countries grinding MTGO pays better than minimum wage, and they're sensitive to any change in the economy, like prize payout changes), you can't simplify it without losing the connection to paper entirely (and considering online is the future of eternal formats due to the reserve list, that would be another disaster).

Recording Arena: So my choices to record the draft either involve doing so manually (presumably HearthArena has a relatively easy means to do so?) or recording a video? Based on all the crazy Hearthstone data mining I see paraded about (especially thrown in the face of Wizard's archaic data mining/API policies), I expected something I could run alongside Hearthstone and it would do all the dirty work for me

MOBA: Teamfights have a lot of macro stuff that goes into what you do before it, though. If, for example, waves are pushing against you and you can't take any objectives off it, you may want to avoid taking a teamfight at all, and the opponent may force you to do so. The mechanics of teamfights themselves are rather micro, though this is dependant on a lot (For example, macro map movements can give one team a major advantage over a team with better micro skills).

I wouldn't say this is very relevant to the topic of last hitting though, since last hitting both isn't that micro intensive and isn't there for micro reasons (It's there to create tension, help prevent snowballing and cause interaction for the player in the early game). Note that last hitting isn't impossible to remove but that it warps your game design in a LOT of ways to remove it.

Magic Online: I don't think you need to simplify Magic to put it online, I think you just need a program which does it properly. Process things faster, most importantly a better interface, better connections, a better format for purchasing cards (the purchasing system in MTGO is very archaic), basically moreso than the game itself the system needs to take cues from HS. MTGO should not be so far behind its peers on a /technical/ level.

Having lots of corner cases is actually a HUGE plus for going online, because the computer can handle all the corner cases, and you can, say, keep rulings in a small help thing you can bring up. It significantly reduces the amount of times people will play something wrong and confusion about how it works. The most difficult thing to figure out really is "how to keep the game flow going" but I think a time limit on reacting to the foe's plays is reasonable and enough.

Recording Arena: The best way to record stats is by hand. HearthStats has a tracker which is automatic, but it will track much less of your overall stats, it won't tell you about your deck like HearthArena will, and I am unsure if Blizzard thinks the tracker is "legal".

People asked about recording a video because asking how to "record" something is vague.

[Cheater Hater]

MOBAs: I think I'm going to drop this, as it's wildly off-topic for the Hearthstone topic, and we are not going to agree about the necessity of last-hitting in a MOBA.

MTGO: Every corner case needs to be tested though, and even MTGO won't get every one right (and I'd say the rules engine is the one thing MTGO generally does the best). Even so, MTGO can't be perfect, both in terms of formats (Conspiracy draft certainly isn't worth the time investment, for instance, and the only reason Planechase was programmed in was because Planechase 2012 had new important cards) complex rules (obviously dexterity cards aren't ever coming, but even stuff like Raging River is hard), and infinite combos (since the opponent can theoretically interrupt the combo at any point, most simple macro stuff won't work).
Obviously the technical incompetency of Wizards is a joke, but a lot of it is due to the complexity of the rules, the complexity of the economy (though they won't have anyone help with it), and the lack of resources (which is from Hasbro, as well as the paper vs digital investment).

Arena: Okay, I'll try going through one of my drafts and see if there's anything I'm obviously doing wrong
Edit: Here's my first Heartharena-recorded run, I mostly ended up with the recommended picks based on what my intuition said--no Flamestrike though :/