The Orc Clan: Following the Princess Rule

[Ravus Sol]

I agree that mostly roleplay answers to an initial greeting can be very annoying.

Oh, and it's faux pas. (great expression by the way)

Indeed

I will reply soon and see if the role playing gets toned down enough to get some back and forth dialogue going.

thanks for the catch there. You might be fighting a loosing battle to stop my silly mistakes though considering in this thread i've allready talked about plotting against myself and have made a plan that involves trying to blow up the world it could be too late.

[uberfish]

If I thought of Mr yellow as good at diplomacy this would feel like a slap to the face. A complete dismissal of my own attempts to direct the conversation and simply restarting on his terms. Even with how bad I "think" he is this is a level beyond. This is an appalling load of nothing that's not even hidden in fancy words. If I was next to him and planning to attack SOMEONE I'd start contemplating him as a target.

lol, welcome back

Yeah I'm not one for roleplaying in diplo either, it gets tiring pretty quickly when overdone.

[Ravus Sol]

lol, welcome back

Yeah I'm not one for roleplaying in diplo either, it gets tiring pretty quickly when overdone.

Nice to be back, although I still am bushed on time.

Roleplaying is fine for emphasising things... But it shouldn't be used too much.

In other news I've replied to Mr Yellow and Sareln and Mr Yellow has also managed to grab me while online. Guess what? He DID have a target. It's the elves. Now I just have to figure out which side to support or ignore.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Elvish has no word for over-politicking, Horses have a word for bluntness, it means "horseshoe to the face"[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "Maybe I should try again" response[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Lime"]OK, a real response now. Was waiting around to see when you'd be online. Saw no activity so i wonder when you usually are.

Anyway, i have indeed made contact with Mist west of me. It's quite a distance away though, but nothing overwhelming. Apparently each player have a rather big area around to settle in. Although big as it may be though, it's quite arid. Plains dominate everywhere i've been and only a very few places have the luxury of flood plains around. Luxury resources are even sparser. The ones availible to me are simply not worth investing in and ignored for the moment.

As for the other 2, i haven't met them yet, BUT i'm fairly sure that the vamps are located west of you.

How's relations with the elves so far? We've barely talked though and the most was about directions for contacting you.

Anyway, as you've probably seen in my earlier mail i am up for mercenary work. I'm sure there are certain stuff we can talk buisness about!

By the way, your wolf rider is going westward yes? Shouldn't be many turns till you find my area.

- Horselord Yellow[/COLOR]

This is Mr Yellow realising that he can't find me online and trying to send a second email. It's prompt enough and gives better information so i decided to ripen my hook when angling for information.

[SIZE="4"]The "I read more from what you don't say in emails then what you do say" reply[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Orange"]To the Horselord Yellow, recorded on the Palantír for your later convenience.

Unfortunately I live in the Australian time zone so chances for us to be available to chat one to one will most likely be limited. If you give me your own timezone and times you are available we could make an effort to co-ordinate for something important.

You may bemoan the arid state of the land as I do, but unlike yourself I have yet to see any lush flood plains. You are indeed lucky. I believe the Elves have even less Grassland then myself although soon their Ancient Forests will make up for this lack of food. As to the elves diplomatic state; Myself and my Orcish comrades have found them to be pleasant enough conversationalists. We met early on and due to the shocking size of the land and time to travel anywhere, we made a basic informational exchange agreement. So far you are the only other we have found.

My Wolf Rider actually assumed you were to the north somewhere and has ventured far in that direction. If you are indeed to the West of the Elves instead I may circle around to the South East now instead hoping to find someone else to talk to. The Vampires could indeed be to the West of Isengard. Unfortunatley a large number of Griffins in that area have been fed enough to be deadly. I've cut off exploration there untill stronger units come into play.

As for mercenary offers, this seems bold, considering the Elves are the only other contact I have met. Plus the only other contact you have met is the Bannor. So perhaps one of them has done something to offend you? Or does one of them look particularly weak or tempting in your conquer eyes? I do admit that our armies could work well together. My easily Warren-doubled Land units supporting a slow siege army while your faster horses harass the enemy. Plus the Elves to lie nicely between our two nations.

Ravus - The Red Wizard[/COLOR]

I'm blunt enough in my put down about timezones but soften it with an offer to try to get together for something important.

I highlight that flood plains at all are nothing to sneer about. I hint that I am aware of the future economic threat that the Elves show. But I also imply that we have had pleasant conversations so my stance on them can be taken either way.

Mr Yellows suspicion of the Vampires being to my West is probably based on some pattern he surmises about the civilization layout. I suppose If the Bannor-Hippus-Elves are all on a line in the middle then Mr Yellow assumes that the Vampires are to the south between the Bannor-Hippus much like I am to the south between the Hippus-Elves. All in all this is turning out to be a strange map. But fun in it's own way.

Finally I point out that offering military abilities when I only have one neighbour is not the best attempt at being subtle. Okay i'm not that blunt. But it's implied. It's obvious the Hippus have some target and any information I can get on that is crucial.

I do drop the extra ripe juicy fact that the elves are between our two nations. This is sure to tug on Mr Yellows heart strings as he was eliminated by two nations he was between in his last FFH game. One of them was a Thessa/Ljosalfar combo as well.

Mr Yellow eventually stumbled onto myself online, but by then I had allready replied to the Elves.

[SIZE="4"]The "Trying to get more and grandstanding" attempt[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Orange"]Delays are to be expected on matters of this magnitude, they need to be pondered properly, so don't worry overly about speed of response.

It is interesting that you have had only brief pleasurable conversation with our resident Horselord. He is acting quite differently in conversation with myself. Although we are two very different leaders with very different civilizations. He has provided information in regards to himself and the Bannor. Most importantly hinting that he suspects the Vampires to be to my west. Although with your own lack of contact I wonder how much truth and trust to place in his words.

With a suspected powerful nation hinted at being close to myself I do like the idea of having a safe border. I have far more fear of the Horselords then the Bannor. They will not be able to grow an abundance of cottages with this arid land, while the Horselords can perform well military wise on a large map with fast moving units. Meanwhile the Mages could be powerful if left alone and the Vampires are ALLWAYS a threat.

But onto Moria; The agreement of one Happy and one Health resource is a balanced agreement. But considering it Is you, not I, that is locked for certain between two nations I would like to ask that I am allowed to be the first to found both the Runes of Kilmorph and the Ashen Veil. I know that the Elves can get a lot from religion and that both of us would benefit from Ritualists for Ring of Fire spells. I don't know yet if you plan to make your armies into a arcane or divine one but for myself there is no question. I need these two religions and I suspect that you can do without having the Holy cities. I also suspect I could have demanded more if I had more Worg Riders, but your leap in the power graphs has been noticeable since you found out that you were between two aggressive nations. Your own expansion has also been on par with my own, although I missed exactly when your third city was founded, but I know you could rush settle Moria before I could due to it's closeness to your own land.

I do not mind seeding you the land of Clam-point. I do not need it and it would be more useful to yourself. The city I will found closest to you will be 4S & 1E of the Clams near Moria. I will probably wait until Warrens to found this city. It's only of negligible value but it is defend-able enough and a point to make a road to bridge our two nations. I'd estimate that it will take around 25 turns to found it. Maybe a little more. Will you have founded Moria by then so that we can link our roads up?

A Bi-directional map agreement could be useful. I definitely agree with needing to get confirmation before doing map trades with others. While we could trust each other with our maps while in a NAP others might not be so... kind. I still need to fire off my own worldspell for exploration once barbarians actually start appearing. I hadn't realised how late they appear without dungeons and spawn points.

We do need a NAP if we are going to be trading so much information and planning a land division. But even with a map this large T160 sounds too long. I would prefer something to around T125 with an agreement to revisit extending it once we get to turn 100. Like you say we will most likely find it easier and easier to extend if we find ourselves working well together.

Apart from those minor adjustments we find ourselves in agreement.

Ravus - The Red Wizard

PS have YOU seen any barbarian yet?[/COLOR]

I hint at the discrepancies between our two communications with the Horselords.

When discussing Moria I try to strike a balance of demanding something while stating my own possible future strength with a respectful tone. Not sure I pulled it of. Depending on Sarelns on state of mind he could just think i'm a wordy sod.

The giving away of Clam-point is meaningless to me and I try to handwave it away in a positive manner to show i can be generous. This should make Sareln more willing to handwave away my need to found my two religions first. It's not much to ask for. In fact its more for show that i ask so that I don't appear to be just demurring to Sarelns offer. I don't want to give a pacifistic impression TOO much.

I try to get the NAP down to 125 but once the Horselords grab me I think I should have battered it down as low as turn 100. Any lower and it could imply I was only playing peace while waiting for him to found Moria for me to steal. But any more then 100 and i loose the ability to react to Mr Yellows now revealed violent intentions towards the Elves.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Hung by a Horsemans petard[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]The "Reveal your hand and either hope the other person is nice or have a ace up your sleeve" response[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Orange"]9:52 PM
me: It seems luck is in for you as after just sending of an email to you about Orc-Horselord relations we also find ourselves online at the same time. If you have read it, is there anything you would like to discuss in person?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="lime"]9:53 PM
Hans-Kristian: well idont have anything particular on my mind right now, though i'm interrested in the current elves situation, who i'm considering togheter with the vamps to be the current front runners at the moment

they are nicely fit between us indeed[/COLOR]
[COLOR="orange"]9:55 PM
me: Yes they are the frontrunners. Also with their eventual forests they will have the best possible land. But they also have spotted that they are between two potentially agressive nations if their boost in power is to be judged.
9:56 PM
I agree with you for the most part although the Vampire rank higher in threat level. Mackoti is a much more ruthless leader then Sareln.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hans-Kristian: that may be, but honestly i'd like to give an attack on them a try, rather than let him continue grow in peace
9:58 PM
regarding mackoti, he is indeed more dangerous,but requires time before he can get vamps out. I'ts easier to handle him at this stage than the forests surrounding the elves, who will get FotL and archers soon.

besides we havent met the vamps yet[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]9:59 PM
me: I do agree that the Elves could do with a kick down. But due to the distance I myself cannot contemplate military actions untill Warren doubled units come into play.
10:00 PM
So the question becomes; are you trying to draw me into an alliance against them, or merely hoping that I will not interfere?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hans-Kristian: im interrested in cooperation to take down both the elves and vamps actually
10:01 PM
also ive already made my target, the bannors are too far away and dont even have any cottages around, not to mention theyve been growing vertically the entire time[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]10:02 PM
me: And diplomatic communication with them? Or has it tapered of like your own with the Elves?
10:03 PM
I must say isn't that a bad move? Diplomatic silence can be informative when it's a agressive nation being silent[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Lime"]10:05 PM
Hans-Kristian: well i havent found much to talk about really.[/COLOR]

me: But i'm sure thats not what you wish to talk about. You most likely wish to know when I could muster an offensive force against the elves and what I could bring to the table?

[COLOR="Lime"]Hans-Kristian: been pretty much terrain info exchanges and directions towards you
10:07 PM
anyway, my approach here is to attempt early raids. Simply torch stuff and pick off easy targets while attempting to avoid decisive fights. Forests are gonna be a big problem, but i think hippus speed will still trumph through. I just have to scout the elven lands a bit more[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]10:08 PM
me: I know that their second city is placed towards myself, but you could find this out just by circling their borders. Early raiding is a possibility. it would work to just limit their growth.
10:10 PM
I suspect they are heading toward hunting, so you probably don't have long before they have a unit equal to your Horsemen.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hans-Kristian: well limiting their growth is what i want to achieve, make them turtle up in their cities while i go around torching stuff. Steal a worker or even take out a poorly defended city.
10:12 PM
ill have HBR in 15 turns around, maybe too late but i really need worker techs to get stuff going. Anyway the 3 key techs to look out for are Hunting, FotL and Archery.

and river of blood hit me quite hard[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]10:13 PM
me: Indeed. You will be pleased to know it hit myself and the elves as well, although we got off better because we allready had another settler out and ready to found a third city that wasn't hit.[/COLOR]

Hans-Kristian: Sareln must have barely been touched by it though, he's been focusing heavily on food the entire time.
[COLOR="Orange"]10:14 PM
me: He seems to have an abundance of grain resources and is running Agrarianism so most likely
10:17 PM
15 turns for HBR plus production time for 2-3 cities to build stables and horsemen will cut the assault back to at least 25 turns from now.
10:20 PM
I don't believe I would have a significant army, of Axemen and Catapults, ready until 40 turns from now. I too have had to grab worker resources and the -10% tech rate has cut into my research time hard.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Lime"]10:21 PM
Hans-Kristian: well ii got nothing more to say about this for now. I'll report my progress though at a later time.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Orange"]me: Do you wish to sign a information exchange agreement? Passing along if we meet a fifth nation etc.
10:22 PM
Indeed. You have also given me a lot to think about. Alone I doubt I could conquer the Elves and I had planned on playing expansionist untill you made your revalation. I will have to ponder on what changes to make in my plans[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Lime"]10:23 PM
Hans-Kristian: vey well, as for information exchanges. I'll tell you when i find the other 2. Also i'll eventually get Cartography at some time and can give you overview at particular parts[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]10:24 PM
me: Good enough for now. I hope our conversations continue to be as pleasant as this one. Don't hesitate to send me a message on anything else you wish to discuss.
10:25 PM
So long for now.
- Ravus[/COLOR]

Hans-Kristian: goodbye then

I don't know how some peoples colour code and edit real time conversations. It gets tedious. Maybe they have some kind of program that does it. Anyway this is the short but informative chat with Mr Yellow.

They very quickly, without much dancing around the subject, give away that they wish to attack the elves. Understandable I guess from his perspective. Seeing as bluntness works so well I try asking him flat out if he's trying to get an alliance against the elves or merely telling me so that I will stay out of his way.

Once he replies that he does want an alliance I spend the rest of the conversation implying that I could help without ever once stating that I would attack the Elves. Only talking about when I might be ready for an attack. Mr Yellow never once comments on this... or asks for a confidentiality agreement.

I do find it fishy that Mr Yellow states that the Bannor are Growing vertically yet have no Cottages. Isn't the whole point of vertical growth a combination of food and commerce? They must have a lot of Commerce resources to not need cottages. Or Mr Yellow could be lying... In fact it was around halfwayy where I wondered if Mr yellow was in fact plotting to attack me and was merely pretending to be plotting against the elves to get information about myself. After all if that was the case he really wouldn't care about the elves being told he was going to attack them. It would actually work in his favour as they would build units that would then never be used.

He cuts himself off, what seems abrubtly, at the end. So perhaps he had realised my lack of confirmation in ANYTHING. I did give away more then was strictly necessary about both myself and Sareln. But I feel it was worth it to get the information I did. False or not. (although I doubt Mr Yellow is the sort to purposefully supply miss-information)

-

But either way I now need to ponder what to do. I could try to beat down the NAP with Elves some more so that I can Hit them along with or just after the Hippus Horselords. The earlier I want to hit them the further i'd have to derail from my current plans.

Or I could inform the elves of the Hippus agenda, cementing myself as a permanent ally. Perhaps even aiding them against the horselord for a price of some kind. Defensive wars being so much easier to recover from economically.

Or I could attempt to be doubly duplicate and try to find some middle ground to let them both suffer. According to what I know so far all I need to do is Sign a secret NAP with the elves and then stay quiet about the coming Horse invasion to let them suffer while I expand.

There are positive and negative to each action and I apparently have around 25 turns to ponder my decision before the horsemen can start arriving.

[Square Leg]

I don't know how some peoples colour code and edit real time conversations. It gets tedious. Maybe they have some kind of program that does it. Anyway this is the short but informative chat with Mr Yellow.

Cut and paste from Google chat to notepad or wordpad or something with find and replace capability.

Ctrl - H for find and replace.

Find "Ravus Sol"

Replace:

[color= Red]Ravus Sol[/color]

(without the space of course!)

[Ravus Sol]

Cut and paste from Google chat to notepad or wordpad or something with find and replace capability.

Ctrl - H for find and replace.

Find "Ravus Sol"

Replace:

[color= Red]Ravus Sol[/color]

(without the space of course!)

Thanks Square Leg! That will be useful seeing as Mr Yellow seems to want to do most diplomacy in chat. Still can't comprehend why. Maybe he just thinks most people have a harder time playing diplomatic games when talking in real time.

[Bobchillingworth]

I also very much prefer real-time chats. It's a great way to cut the BS and roleplay out of conversations- your emails are all well-written, but if I were playing in this game and received that sort of correspondence I'd have written you off as a lost cause long ago. I don't have much patience for people who play coy. Anyone who types a large missive beyond simple introductions without including valuable information is either deliberately trying to mislead you or blow you off- either way they're a worthless conversation partner. Chats are also far more dynamic than emails for obvious reasons, meaning that you can discuss a bevy of issues in the space of an hour, rather than exchanging emails back and forth which often takes days. Plus people tend to reveal more in chats than they might otherwise. In G-chat you can even tell when people are possibly trying to sanitize something they're about to say, since it'll show that they're typing and then pause as they edit a sentence before pressing "enter". For someone who feels comfortable with their ability to handle a conversation in real-time, that's a big advantage.

[Ravus Sol]

I also very much prefer real-time chats. It's a great way to cut the BS and roleplay out of conversations- your emails are all well-written, but if I were playing in this game and received that sort of correspondence I'd have written you off as a lost cause long ago. I don't have much patience for people who play coy. Anyone who types a large missive beyond simple introductions without including valuable information is either deliberately trying to mislead you or blow you off- either way they're a worthless conversation partner. Chats are also far more dynamic than emails for obvious reasons, meaning that you can discuss a bevy of issues in the space of an hour, rather than exchanging emails back and forth which often takes days. Plus people tend to reveal more in chats than they might otherwise. In G-chat you can even tell when people are possibly trying to sanitize something they're about to say, since it'll show that they're typing and then pause as they edit a sentence before pressing "enter". For someone who feels comfortable with their ability to handle a conversation in real-time, that's a big advantage.

Well i think I can win back anyone through chat that i loose through email. Hopefully the emails are at least amusing for you from the outside when not actually involved.

I do agree chat can better when planning, I guess for opening talks I just prefer emails. And thanks for explaining why you would be offput by it. I'll have to remember that in future.

[Ravus Sol]

Okay so short summery of turn 61?

Got annoyed at waiting for barbarians to appear, I checked on normal games in FFH and the barbs started appearing and founding cities around turn 50. You can guess what I did. Bad news. Barely any units were gained. And the only good unit was stuck on one of the islands. Good news is that I now have more map and know where the Amurites are.

Will have to do some more email slinging around. If I can find the Bannor and Vamps as well I may be able to hold the Diplomatic monopoly for awhile.